Unattached British Talent ?

[poolebolton]

37 minutes ago, The Third Man said:

MacDonald looked a lot better prospect in his first season with Sheffield, and his first season in England than Greaves did when he rode for Sheffield.

so if I had to choose I would go for him on a four leaving an extra 0.61 points available for the rest of the team, because he looks a much better prospect

I  would actually have gone for Kennedy over MacDonald 

Macdonald was far better than Kennedy really. Just went up to 2 and struggled in a few meetings. 

[The Third Man]

23 minutes ago, poolebolton said:

Macdonald was far better than Kennedy really. Just went up to 2 and struggled in a few meetings. 

based on watching them both last season Kennedy looks the better prospect to me

[poolebolton]

1 hour ago, The Third Man said:

based on watching them both last season Kennedy looks the better prospect to me

speedway is a sport where stats don’t lie I’m afraid. Until josh went to 2 he was 0.5 point ahead. 

[DC2]

22 minutes ago, poolebolton said:

speedway is a sport where stats don’t lie I’m afraid. Until josh went to 2 he was 0.5 point ahead. 

 

I’d take the view of the fan who watched them both rather than the one 300 miles away looking at the end of season averages!

 

[poolebolton]

3 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

I’d take the view of the fan who watched them both rather than the one 300 miles away looking at the end of season averages!

 

I’ll take the view of Danny King who rode with both of them and picked them. 
 

rider over fan every day. 

[DC2]

1 minute ago, poolebolton said:

I’ll take the view of Danny King who rode with both of them and picked them. 
 

rider over fan every day. 

 

Really.  

 

[ray c]

9 hours ago, poolebolton said:

I’ll take the view of Danny King who rode with both of them and picked them. 
 

rider over fan every day. 

don't say much for us fans then that go each week to a meeting 

[The Third Man]

18 hours ago, poolebolton said:

speedway is a sport where stats don’t lie I’m afraid. Until josh went to 2 he was 0.5 point ahead. 

Look at their averages on the Sheffield web site and including bonus points there was nothing between them, and Kennedy was also at number two for some matches

[Ben91]

On 1/31/2020 at 10:10 PM, poolebolton said:

I’ll take the view of Danny King who rode with both of them and picked them. 
 

rider over fan every day. 

Which is exactly where the sport is going wrong. There will always be riders, there won’t always be fans. The riders have too much power these days. 

[SteveLyric2]

26 minutes ago, Ben91 said:

Which is exactly where the sport is going wrong. There will always be riders, there won’t always be fans. The riders have too much power these days. 

..so do the bikes!!!

Edited February 24, 2020 by Skidder1

[Justgotmecpc]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:21 PM, wtf said:

I think it's ridiculous to criticise individual clubs or promotions for acting in the best interests of their businesses. As Blobby says above, why wouldn't a promotion look to try and unearth a "gem" rather than keep going back to an average brit hoping they come good and push on. There are many more who fall by the wayside than those who push on.  Where the confusion comes I think is we all seem to think the BSPA should be pushing forward rules to help promote a healthy GB representation going forward. Whilst they act as a governing body so to speak, it's just a group of individual business people (and I use the term "Business people" very lightly) making stuff up to suit themselves. You could argue that a healthy Team GB helps their businesses, but I bet they would argue that a successful team helps them more. I would have thought Team GB and Rob Painter should be the ones lobbying the BSPA to make a structure that encourages development of GB riders and youngsters in particular. The PZM make the Polish rules to help develop their riders, the Swedes in the past did similar. Rob Painter should be trying the get the BSPA to do something to provide opportunities or advantages to British riders. I can't believe they didn't continue with something similar to the fast track set up they have. sure modify it, improve it, but use it to give opportunities to those British riders you think have the most potential. Other counties do it successfully, but maybe as a group they think they have nothing they can learn from other countries?

At the same time, British riders really need to help themselves sometimes. Too many times when the going gets tough they "retire" and throw teddy in the corner. Understandable to a degree when since the age of 11 they've been told they are superstars. Sometimes blowing sunshine up kids backsides does skew their thinking. Too many times I've been talking to them and they say "no ones called me yet about a ride for next year" you ought to see the look on their faces when you ask if they have called anyone themselves.

I'm generalising of course, there are some really good proactive riders out there and some really pig headed idiots too, the majority sit somewhere in between. Interesting what Arnieg says about Charles Wright. In 2010 as stated, Charles averaged under 4 at Redcar, he didn't have particularly successful periods in 2011 and 2012. The difference I guess is he didn't have a hissy fit and retire, he went away, considered his future, decided to change somethings and started to rebuild. A season in the NL rebuilding confidence and then taking at opportunity at Somerset when the time was right and he's built from there. the Fast Track helped him even though he decided to sit out the first year, and he progressed. You could say similar about the later progression of Jason Doyle. in 2011 there were plenty of Aussies who were considered more talented than him at the time, some of whom are sat back in Aussie now after themselves having hissy fits. (it's not just a british thing). There is an element of if you want it bad enough you'll make it and if you don't you won't. And in my experience too many young brits don't want it bad enough. Yes the system isn't perfect, Team GB should be making the BSPA do something to help, but these guys need to help themselves as well.

 

Massive paragraph but a get your point of view

[Triple.H.]

The thing with the young Australians is most come here and bust a gut to earn money as they ain't got Mum and Dad a few miles away to bale them out.

I've said it on here before. So I'll repeat myself. Too many young British riders think they've made it when they get a signwritten van and a bit of eyecandy on their arm. 

Also of you were a young British Rider and wanted to really upset the applecart, I'm sure the relevant authorities would frown upon untried riders requiring a visa getting a job while a British citizen doesn't.

[poolebolton]

11 hours ago, Ben91 said:

Which is exactly where the sport is going wrong. There will always be riders, there won’t always be fans. The riders have too much power these days. 

For saying which rider is better. You just quoted something and changed the subject. 

[Ben91]

48 minutes ago, poolebolton said:

For saying which rider is better. You just quoted something and changed the subject. 

And? 

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

On 1/30/2020 at 7:12 PM, arnieg said:

As a 21 year old Charles Wright was averaging less than 4 for Redcar in the second tier. So to suggest that Nathan Greaves can be so casually discarded seems very harsh.

(And after 6 years of Conference league experience Paul Starke  averaged below 2.5 for Newcastle in the PL).

We need the likes of Greaves, Hume and Bowtell to have decent opportunities to continue their careers as we continue to find it more and more difficult to attract riders from abroad.

 

A bit of an empty soundbite that one, often substandard British riders** can be as damaging to the team and themselves if just given a team place solely based on where their passport says they are from. 

This country already offers development leagues for riders to cut their teeth and improve their skills, find a pathway into the sport etc. If people are being asked to pay money to watch the product, they should be given  a decent return on that investment for doing so rather than simply having to pay the wage of someone solely based on their place of birth rather than the talent and skill they posses.

I would question if it is a sensible message, or even a true pathway of development in the long term to give a rider team spot based on where they are from either, in what is seen as a more "professional" league". I am not entirely convinced that actually benefits in the long term creating a psyche of an entitlement rather than earning it. 

**

not applying that to those mentioned, but simply applying a broad stroke statement as so many do on these subjects

Edited February 25, 2020 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Sings4Speedway]

In all other sports opportunities are grabbed, gained and lost by either being good or not good enough along with a bit of fortune. All sports persons at the top of their game got there through dedication, hard work and because they did what it took to get to the top. In contrast Speedway can at times reward mediocrity and potential whilst genuine steady improvers can be frozen out. The numbers game is a harsh game and there has been a massive list throughout the years of good riders who never made it and it will grow year on year. The only way to guarantee a team place is to be so good that everyone wants to sign you.

[HGould]

My interest has been piqued enough to look at the make up of PL + CL Teams.

It can be complicated by doubling up so some riders double count once in each League and also the confused nationality of "Roo Boy Schlein" who I have counted as Australian and Connor Bailey who I have counted as GB.

British Riders

PL

Belle Vue = 3

Ipswich = 2

Kings Lynn = 3

Peterborough = 1

Sheffield  = 3

Swindon = 3

Wolves = 0

 

 

CL

Berwick = 2

Birmingham = 5

Eastbourne = 7

Edinburgh = 4

Glasgow = 2

Kent = 5

Leicester = 4

Newcastle = 3

Poole = 4

Redcar = 3

Scunthorpe = 3

Somerset = 4

 

I've no point to make in terms of what's best. Results and winners/losers at end of season will dictate that. My own preference would probably be to have 2-3 foreign riders and 4-5 Brits but that's not something that would stop or make me attend or not.

The one really interesting dynamic seems to be geography and the only team with 4 or more Brits north of the Midlands is Edinburgh - the 6 teams with most Brits are south of that line.

So how big a factor is who is available rather than where from?

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by HGould
missed Wolves out...how could I possibly have done that to the dog heads??...lol

[gazzac]

1 hour ago, Sings4Speedway said:

In all other sports opportunities are grabbed, gained and lost by either being good or not good enough along with a bit of fortune. All sports persons at the top of their game got there through dedication, hard work and because they did what it took to get to the top. In contrast Speedway can at times reward mediocrity and potential whilst genuine steady improvers can be frozen out. The numbers game is a harsh game and there has been a massive list throughout the years of good riders who never made it and it will grow year on year. The only way to guarantee a team place is to be so good that everyone wants to sign you.

Indeed, I remember when Woffy and Lewis Bridger were at a point in their early careers when they both seemed to have similar talent on a bike and looked to be going places, we know how that turned out for both!

[GiveusaB]

1 hour ago, HGould said:

My interest has been piqued enough to look at the make up of PL + CL Teams.

It can be complicated by doubling up so some riders double count once in each League and also the confused nationality of "Roo Boy Schlein" who I have counted as Australian and Connor Bailey who I have counted as GB.

British Riders

PL

Belle Vue = 3

Ipswich = 2

Kings Lynn = 3

Peterborough = 1

Sheffield  = 3

Swindon = 3

Wolves = 0

 

 

CL

Berwick = 2

Birmingham = 5

Eastbourne = 7

Edinburgh = 4

Glasgow = 2

Kent = 5

Leicester = 4

Newcastle = 3

Poole = 4

Redcar = 3

Scunthorpe = 3

Somerset = 4

 

I've no point to make in terms of what's best. Results and winners/losers at end of season will dictate that. My own preference would probably be to have 2-3 foreign riders and 4-5 Brits but that's not something that would stop or make me attend or not.

The one really interesting dynamic seems to be geography and the only team with 4 or more Brits north of the Midlands is Edinburgh - the 6 teams with most Brits are south of that line.

So how big a factor is who is available rather than where from?

 

Not wanting to sound 'dis-respectful' here.....are we swaying away from the thread point by analysing how many Brits each team have, as opposed to the development, or lack of, re: British Talent?

B'ham have 5 Brits, but how many of that 5 are we helping to develop? answer would be 3 imo ?

[HGould]

11 minutes ago, GiveusaB said:

Not wanting to sound 'dis-respectful' here.....are we swaying away from the thread point by analysing how many Brits each team have, as opposed to the development, or lack of, re: British Talent?

B'ham have 5 Brits, but how many of that 5 are we helping to develop? answer would be 3 imo ?

Fair point Give Us a B 

The point I was trying to make though was that if the "unattached talent" is in certain areas it may be less likely to be picked up than others. 

I agree that I think that Brummies are looking to develop 3 and I widely applaud that and certainly get more of a buzz of of us developing shall we say Shanesy, Jack or Ashley rather than a Dane or even Paco, who I love as a rider and a real team man.