Loan Riders

[Tosh1218]

Reading all the threads on here about certain clubs having riders signed as an asset and loaning them out to other clubs .So what I would like to know is 

1- is there a limit on how many loan riders can be in a sides 1-7

2 - who gets the loan fee is it the side the rider signs for in there own country

And thirdly what type of money do these season loans cost I assume it's based on the riders average ,as some sides have no rider assets and others have a huge list .      Thanks in advance

 

[NeilWatson]

7 minutes ago, Tosh1218 said:

Reading all the threads on here about certain clubs having riders signed as an asset and loaning them out to other clubs .So what I would like to know is 

1- is there a limit on how many loan riders can be in a sides 1-7

2 - who gets the loan fee is it the side the rider signs for in there own country

And thirdly what type of money do these season loans cost I assume it's based on the riders average ,as some sides have no rider assets and others have a huge list .      Thanks in advance

 

1 - No

2 - The loan fee is paid to the British Club that holds the rider’s registration, it is not connected to their nationality.

3 - Loan fees are indeed based on the rider’s average

[False dawn]

10 minutes ago, NeilWatson said:

3 - Loan fees are indeed based on the rider’s average

But shrouded in mystery.
Or is that commercial confidentiality?

[ProudtobeaBrummie]

23 minutes ago, NeilWatson said:

3 - Loan fees are indeed based on the rider’s average

What sort of loan fee would be paid for lets say a 6.5 average championship rider ?

[ruffdiamond]

43 minutes ago, ProudtobeaBrummie said:

What sort of loan fee would be paid for lets say a 6.5 average championship rider ?

A used Cortina mk III, a christmas hamper and 1000 embassy coupons.

[NeilWatson]

1 hour ago, False dawn said:

But shrouded in mystery.
Or is that commercial confidentiality?

 

1 hour ago, ProudtobeaBrummie said:

What sort of loan fee would be paid for lets say a 6.5 average championship rider ?

I won’t quote figures - the loan fee scale is a confidential BSPA document and I still retain some respect for the organisation. In any event as I wasn’t involved last year I am not privy to the current rates so any figures I quoted may not be accurate - the scale had been unchanged for a number of years during my Promoting days and I knew it off by heart but I believe there was a change in 2019.

Edited January 1, 2020 by NeilWatson

[False dawn]

3 minutes ago, NeilWatson said:

.....the loan fee scale is a confidential BSPA document.....

Well I learned something, thank you. I guess I assumed the rate was negotiated between the two clubs involved not predetermined by this document. If clubs stick to these rates and are not coming to clandestine agreements, I can't see why the document is confidential. 

[mikebv]

I seem to remember it was a % of the average converted into £'s..

(Think I once saw 20% mentioned?).

eg if it was 20% then an 8 points rider would get the club who owns his contract £1600..

[NeilWatson]

24 minutes ago, False dawn said:

Well I learned something, thank you. I guess I assumed the rate was negotiated between the two clubs involved not predetermined by this document. If clubs stick to these rates and are not coming to clandestine agreements, I can't see why the document is confidential. 

That would give too much negotiating power to the Clubs with a large asset base

23 minutes ago, mikebv said:

I seem to remember it was a % of the average converted into £'s..

(Think I once saw 20% mentioned?).

eg if it was 20% then an 8 points rider would get the club who owns his contract £1600..

The scale was a simple ‘£ per point’ calculator

Edited January 1, 2020 by NeilWatson

[Tsunami]

1 hour ago, mikebv said:

I seem to remember it was a % of the average converted into £'s..

(Think I once saw 20% mentioned?).

eg if it was 20% then an 8 points rider would get the club who owns his contract £1600..

Still guessing Mike.

[mikebv]

55 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

Still guessing Mike.

Not at all, seem to remember someone coming on here with the calculation a while back..

If it isn't correct not an issue..

Not that important in the grand scheme of things..

Maybe those who do know should just inform the fans?

Does sometimes seem to have its own omertà Speedway...

But then again, being 'in the know' you probably know that...

NB I also once got told it was £1000 a point per average but that did seem a little too much for me as paying out £5k a year for a five point man seemed ludicrous given how little money most teams have, and how many use many loan signings in their team..

Still, a bit of conjecture passes the winter months...

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by mikebv

[PotteringAround]

9 minutes ago, mikebv said:

Maybe those who do know should just inform the fans?

Does sometimes seem to have its own omertà Speedway...

 

I always find comments like this particularly stupid.

Of course the paying customer in a sport has a right to know the rules by which the team he supports are competing.  And indeed the Speedway regulations are in the public domain, as are all the averages, and the competition rules.

It was even a fair question to ask what the mechanism for loan fees was.  If teams could negotiate their own loan fee levels it could lead to an unfair competitive advantage.  And this question was answered.  There was a set loan fee scale which makes things fair.

But to demand the intimate costings of a private limited company is just ridiculous.   No business operates like that.  When you bought your Christmas turkey at Tesco, they will have told you the price they wanted for it.  They'd have told you it's weight and any information you needed to know to be able to gauge what you were getting for your money.   But you really expect Tesco to tell you how much they paid for the turkey, or how much their rent and utilities bills are?      That's just ridiculous.

 

[mikebv]

31 minutes ago, PotteringAround said:

I always find comments like this particularly stupid.

Of course the paying customer in a sport has a right to know the rules by which the team he supports are competing.  And indeed the Speedway regulations are in the public domain, as are all the averages, and the competition rules.

It was even a fair question to ask what the mechanism for loan fees was.  If teams could negotiate their own loan fee levels it could lead to an unfair competitive advantage.  And this question was answered.  There was a set loan fee scale which makes things fair.

But to demand the intimate costings of a private limited company is just ridiculous.   No business operates like that.  When you bought your Christmas turkey at Tesco, they will have told you the price they wanted for it.  They'd have told you it's weight and any information you needed to know to be able to gauge what you were getting for your money.   But you really expect Tesco to tell you how much they paid for the turkey, or how much their rent and utilities bills are?      That's just ridiculous.

 

As I say,

It doesn't really matter,  but interesting sometimes to know some of the inner workings of how clubs operate..

And also may help fans understand some of the various costs they have to asborb..

Which may go some way also in lowering their expectations of what their team can deliver and provide more understanding of what promoters go through..

But, quite rightly, if they want to keep certain things amongst themselves then no drama...

It is only a very tiny minority sport after all so won't impact too many what the promoters do or don't..

[ch958]

actually if this was taken to law it would collapse like a pack of cards - riders are actually self employed contractors and the asset system is a load of bollox. 

[Tsunami]

5 minutes ago, ch958 said:

actually if this was taken to law it would collapse like a pack of cards - riders are actually self employed contractors and the asset system is a load of bollox. 

It's so illegal and undesirable that no-one has even challenged it. Could be the cost, but it could also be that the contract of ownership is not so bad as they have an owner to keep them upto date, and both sides know that if a rider wants to ride elsewhere he will go. Not exactly a noose  is it.

[PotteringAround]

12 minutes ago, ch958 said:

actually if this was taken to law it would collapse like a pack of cards - riders are actually self employed contractors and the asset system is a load of bollox. 

You're basing this comment on what?

It seems to be a perfectly sensible mechanism by which members of the BSPA can do business with each other, and obviously no one has had a problem with it in many decades of operation.

 

[Byker Biker]

26 minutes ago, ch958 said:

actually if this was taken to law it would collapse like a pack of cards - riders are actually self employed contractors and the asset system is a load of bollox. 

Then they shouldn't enter into contractual agreements or accept payments for anything other than the work they do. Service contracts have failed the statutory test of Self Employment so it's only a matter of time.

[ch958]

if someone is an employee, they get paid and have certain protections. If a team can't fit a rider in, that rider is essentially redundant and able to seek work. elsewhere unfettered by his previous employer. Yes, its working at the moment and no one is complaining too much but sooner or later a Bosman type situation will arise. 

[FAST GATER]

16 minutes ago, ch958 said:

if someone is an employee, they get paid and have certain protections. If a team can't fit a rider in, that rider is essentially redundant and able to seek work. elsewhere unfettered by his previous employer. Yes, its working at the moment and no one is complaining too much but sooner or later a Bosman type situation will arise. 

I can assure you that in most cases both sides are happy with the arrangement ,I am not privy to the sums involved( most teams want riders to be riding )  but it will be rider's terms that make or break deals !

[Byker Biker]

10 hours ago, ch958 said:

if someone is an employee, they get paid and have certain protections. If a team can't fit a rider in, that rider is essentially redundant and able to seek work. elsewhere unfettered by his previous employer. Yes, its working at the moment and no one is complaining too much but sooner or later a Bosman type situation will arise. 

I'm afraid not, the riders are free to work for whom and where they like, granted there may be argy bargy because the club that holds the registration wants to offer a team place and some newby promoter has made an illegal approach offering the rider brewsters to go elsewhere. The BSPA has an appeal process which runs all the way to the ACU but ultimately the rider will ride where he chooses and in my example the club owning the registration gets a loan fee and the club making an illegal approach gets a fine. If club A says you can have him on a transfer only basis then it goes to appeal.

The process has been taken to Barristers by certainly one rider I know as well as the BSPA and has been acknowledged as legal and definately not a Bosman.