Frank Arthur a real Pioneer.!!!

[norbold]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

I didn't know that Chunky about Frank Charles, the point that Iris made is a great one wouldn't it be good to hear how the respected journalists of there day rated the Langton's,Parker's , ( etc of this world.I have a picture of Langton looking rather gloomy with Lionel Vann Praag i have often heard that there run off for the Championship  could been rigged maybe that is a myth I don't know.

John Chaplin always put forward the story that Van Praag and Langton came to an agreement that whoever reached the first bend first would take the title and the other rider wouldn't overtake him. Langton reached the first bend first but later in the race Van Praag overtook him, thereby reneging on the agreement.

I have always been very doubtful about this as John got the story from Eric Langton and I can't help thinking there may have been a bit of sour grapes about this, but I don't know - it may be true, maybe not.

[iris123]

Roger Frogley was one of the early English riders who really got going and could battle it out with the Australians in those first few years

[norbold]

1 minute ago, iris123 said:

Roger Frogley was one of the early English riders who really got going and could battle it out with the Australians in those first few years

And Jim Kempster.

[iris123]

Do we have a definite date he died for Eric? Wiki seems a bit confused with 1999 and 2001 being mentioned 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Langton

Edited December 14, 2019 by iris123

[norbold]

2 minutes ago, iris123 said:

Do we have a definite date he died for Eric? Wiki seems a bit confused with 1999 and 2001 being mentioned 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Langton

Fairly sure it was 2001. 
Can't be bothered to amend Wiki - It's too complicated these days!!!

[Bavarian]

here is some more info about Eric Langton http://www.motorsport-fanatic.co.uk/speedway-langton.htm

[Bavarian]

By the way, Frank Arthur is in the Australian Speedway Hall of Fame

http://www.speedway.org.au/a-c/frank-arthur

 

[norbold]

40 minutes ago, Bavarian said:

here is some more info about Eric Langton http://www.motorsport-fanatic.co.uk/speedway-langton.htm

Good stuff, Bavarian.

i notice it says that Eric Langton "practically" invented the foot forward style. Now I have always been led to believe that it was, in fact, invented by Ginger Lees and that Eric Langton was an early convert. An interesting field of study!

[E I Addio]

10 hours ago, norbold said:

John Chaplin always put forward the story that Van Praag and Langton came to an agreement that whoever reached the first bend first would take the title and the other rider wouldn't overtake him. Langton reached the first bend first but later in the race Van Praag overtook him, thereby reneging on the agreement.

I have always been very doubtful about this as John got the story from Eric Langton and I can't help thinking there may have been a bit of sour grapes about this, but I don't know - it may be true, maybe not.

A similar sort of story was told by Split Waterman about the 1951 World Final. After 4 rides each, Jack Biggs was unbeaten, with one race to go. Split Waterman was out against Biggs , and another rider in the race - I forget who - came up to Split and said “Has Jack asked you to keep out of his way ? “ Split said he hadn’t so they both went out and beat Biggs who came last, this finishing on 12 points which gave Split and Jack Young the chance of a run off against Biggs. The rest is history. In the run off Biggs made the gate but nerves got to him and he was passed first by Jack Young then Waterman.

Split Waterman didn’t say whether money would need to change hands for the others to “keep out of the way “ but it is unlikely to be a gentleman’s agreement ! 

 

[norbold]

It was Fred Williams who spoke to Split Waterman. However, I'm sure Jack Biggs felt there was no need to say anything, he had been totally dominant that night and probably felt that he would get at least one point out of the race as that was all he needed to become World Champion.

[OveFundinFan]

1951,    Who was the other rider in Jack Biggs last heat race.

[chunky]

1 hour ago, OveFundinFan said:

1951,    Who was the other rider in Jack Biggs last heat race.

Aub Lawson. The race finished Waterman, Lawson, Williams, Biggs.

[E I Addio]

9 hours ago, norbold said:

It was Fred Williams who spoke to Split Waterman. However, I'm sure Jack Biggs felt there was no need to say anything, he had been totally dominant that night and probably felt that he would get at least one point out of the race as that was all he needed to become World Champion.

You might very well be right Norbold, especially as I think Jack Biggs had been dominant in the qualifying rounds and topped the list of qualifiers . However there is another version that I am sure I got from Classic Speedway . That version was that as Biggs started to get troubled by an old back injury and started to get an attack of nerves as he got closer to the possible tile. That could possibly explain why he came last in his last two rides, especially getting passed by Young and Waterman in the run off . However who of us really knows what was going on in Jack Biggs mind at the time ? 

It’s a funny old sport. Jack Young was only about 10th highest qualifier in the qualifying rounds,  but had a good night, got second bite of the cherry in the run off grabbed his chance with both hands, and as a result got into the history books as a great rider and the first to win back to back World Finals whereas the history books view Biggs as something as an also ran . Time to recognise both as great riders.

I was gutted when Jack Biggs lost his life in such a freak accident. A real solid servant of  Speedway , as by all accounts a really nice guy behind the scenes, always with time for the fans, as was Jack Young. 

 

 

[norbold]

A friend of mine - who had been to the first meeting at High Beech in 1928, so he knew a bit about speedway! - told me that Jack Biggs was always very nervous. He remembered seeing him in the pits at various meetings and he was just a bag of nerves. He felt he would have won many more trophies and individual events if he hadn't been so nervous. His view of the 1951 final, which he was at, was that nerves once again got the better of Jack, both in his final race and in the run-off and that's why he lost.

[norbold]

This has become quite a far reaching topic now, so just going back a bit to one of the other issues raised...I have just looked up Stenner's rankings for 1946/7 and 1947/8 to see where Eric Langton and Jack Parker were placed.

1946/7: Parker 2nd, Langton 7th

1947/8: Parker 4th, Langton 14th

Though I think it is safe to assume that Langton was past his best by then and that was his last appearance. Parker went on to be ranked 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 7th over the next four years..

[iris123]

It is also interesting, although I had already seen the article on Langton claiming he was the rider who started the foot forward style. Fairly sure in the contemporary report of the time (1929) that it stated Lees was the one who invented the style. So I wonder where this came from? I have never looked tbh to see if there are contemporary reports supporting the claim about Langton or whether it popped up later

Of course this was 1937, but the back of Gingers card also gives him the claim to first foot forward rider. But pretty sure, although I must check that the local papers in Hamburg were giving him credit back in 1929 and they must have got all their press info from England

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPEEDWAY-RIDERS-No-28-GINGER-LEES-PLAYERS-CIGARETTE-CARD-ISSUED-1937-/254206080294

Edited December 15, 2019 by iris123

[E I Addio]

7 hours ago, iris123 said:

It is also interesting, although I had already seen the article on Langton claiming he was the rider who started the foot forward style. Fairly sure in the contemporary report of the time (1929) that it stated Lees was the one who invented the style. So I wonder where this came from? I have never looked tbh to see if there are contemporary reports supporting the claim about Langton or whether it popped up later

Of course this was 1937, but the back of Gingers card also gives him the claim to first foot forward rider. But pretty sure, although I must check that the local papers in Hamburg were giving him credit back in 1929 and they must have got all their press info from England

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPEEDWAY-RIDERS-No-28-GINGER-LEES-PLAYERS-CIGARETTE-CARD-ISSUED-1937-/254206080294

  I suppose the question has to be asked WHY riders started to ride foot forward. Certainly in the ‘30’s most riders leg trailed so obviously that was the most effective style at the time . I have heard it said that foot forward enabled the rider to take the shortest route round the white line whereas leg trailing was better round the fence but I don’t really buy that one . My Guess is that it is connected to frames and engine development but I can’t think how. 

Anybody have any ideas on this ?

[norbold]

24 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

  I suppose the question has to be asked WHY riders started to ride foot forward. Certainly in the ‘30’s most riders leg trailed so obviously that was the most effective style at the time . I have heard it said that foot forward enabled the rider to take the shortest route round the white line whereas leg trailing was better round the fence but I don’t really buy that one . My Guess is that it is connected to frames and engine development but I can’t think how. 

Anybody have any ideas on this ?

Lees once explained his reasons for changing to this new style by saying that if you didn’t have to lean your bike so far over sideways entering a corner as all the leg-trailers had to do, it would become upright much earlier leaving the bend and so give more tyre traction. 

[Sotonian]

So, if Lees has a valid claim to have invented foot-forward, is it clear who invented leg-trailing?

 My recollection is that it was the American Maldwyn Jones with Eddie Brinck also in the frame.

 

[iris123]

9 hours ago, Sotonian said:

So, if Lees has a valid claim to have invented foot-forward, is it clear who invented leg-trailing?

 My recollection is that it was the American Maldwyn Jones with Eddie Brinck also in the frame.

 

Always thought it was Jones and Brinck was his pupil. Would be easy to solve if there are pics of Jones leg trailing before Brincks career started, although It still wouldn't prove categorically that Jones invented the style

The answer probably isn't here, but it is an amazing site covering the early US motorcycle racing period

http://archivemoto.com/archive

Some interesting comments on this story about laying the bike over and also the bit about not sliding, so obviously the others were sliding

http://archivemoto.com/thearchive/2019/1/31/in-his-own-words-morty-graves

Edited December 16, 2019 by iris123