SON 2020

[Bagpuss]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

... And who's to say that Drew Kemp won't turn out to be another Josh Auty or Ben Howe or Savalas Clouting etc. etc. (to pick a few riders names at random, there are many many more). If you're a late bloomer or want to do things your own way there's no place for you under the current regime. One wonders whether Tai Woffinden would be on the GB Speedway scrap heap during his younger "Party" days? Drew Kemp should be learning his Speedway in the lower leagues and on the continent, serving his time before being given a shot in a World Final, I really hope he goes on to prove me wrong.

He might well be but he has a better chance of making it if he is exposed to quality riders and better competitions now while he is in his improvement years. We have NOBODY beyond four or five senior riders who will ever cut it at international level and three of those were unavailable so it made total sense to blood a youngster at the weekend, we saw what happened last year when Cook and Harris were picked. I accept the odd rider will bloom late like Wright seems to have done but the chances are remote. 

I agree in part with what Grachan says, more of riders need to get out of the UK earlier, Rowe will have done his own development the world of good this season getting out to Poland as I believe there is only limited value in riding in our leagues, we don’t have enough tracks which resemble those on the continent and by and large the opposition isn’t strong enough to drag our lads along developmentally like the Extraliga does, the U21 riders there are chucked in the deep end but it produces results year after year. 

[Grachan]

3 minutes ago, iainb said:

The thing is though "the kids" are probably living at home with their parents and I suspect are being funded by them. The older riders more likely than not have families to support and have probably had to make hard financial choices this year, that does not mean they have no ambition

Quite possible. I'm sure they have valid reasons.

Those who will succeed, though, are probably those who put their ambition ahead of these valid reasons and go to Poland.

If someone as green as Anders Rowe can get a  team spot in Poland I'm sure there are others who could.

 

[IainB]

18 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

He might well be but he has a better chance of making it if he is exposed to quality riders and better competitions now while he is in his improvement years.

But Kemp is only an 8 point rider I'm the NL, to throw him into a world cup final imo is ridiculous, if he'd cleaned up in the NL and shown real promise in the CL then maybe, but for me he's shown nothing special to warrant a SoN team place.

The place for the likes of Kemp is to be riding in test matches yet this year to my knowledge GB speedway haven't ridden in any. There has been a Poland vs Russia test match take place, no coincidence that they are the top 2 speedway nations

Edited October 19, 2020 by iainb

[RPNY]

16 hours ago, PolskiZuzel said:

When In the 80s, the Danes dominated  WTC somehow it did not bother anyone. The Danes had a golden generation of champions, and they used them for quite a few years. Nobody thought of calling off the competition in which one nation dominates, in the same way nobody is calling off Polish club competition dominated  in the last four years by one club.

So when Poles came to the fore after years of drought, the FIM abandoned the exciting competition that often kept fans in suspense until the last race, and sometimes even the last bend. They did  it under the ridiculous pretext of allegedly caring for the development of the speedway. Mind you,  it has to be clear that Poles did not always win. They also had to swallow the bitterness of defeat, for example in Bydgoszcz, where Niels Kristian Iversen stole the  gold from them in the last few yards. All the time, however, there were great emotions and great promotion of speedway. What do we have now? A two-day competition, where riders are to run 42 races, but in the end everything is decided by  the grand final anyway.  To this day, no one knows whether this competition called the Speedway of Nations is a continuator of the WTC or the World Best Pairs. FIM itself, cannot answer this question, saying that it is the championship of … wait for it… Speedway of Nations. What a ridiculous name.

Finally, a simple question for the gentlemen from the FIM.  Isn’t he Speedway of Nations getting boring? After all the Russians win it year after year. it doesn't matter whether the final takes place in Wrocław, Togliatti or on a soggy track in Lublin, interrupted after 14 races? Russia are the  champion and that's it!

I’d say, yes it is getting boring.

(as seen from sportowefakty.pl point of view)

Have to agree with all of this. I know people got of up of Poland Winning but last 4 seasons of SWC there were 3 different winners. Now we've had Russia win 3 times in a row and they will be favorites next year with these 2. SWC threw up some outstanding racing.  Was madness to change it IMO.

Maybe Pairs one year, SWC the next. But Just rolling out the SoN every year isnt that much fun anymore...

[Bagpuss]

I’m sure there would have been at least one but for Covid and the difficulties involved with getting in and out of countries. Regular experience abroad in whatever form is the best way forward and a Test Matches has to be a large part of that. 

As for Kemp, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. 

[Humphrey Appleby]

58 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

Regular experience abroad in whatever form is the best way forward and a Test Matches has to be a large part of that. 

I think very few countries could put out competitive test match teams, which would require anywhere from 6 to 8 riders. 

It would essentially preclude countries (e.g. Australia and the US) where it's impractical for them to stage home matches, whilst riding matches at neutral venues would probably be a financial disaster. As it stands, people have already pointed out the flaws of the Best Pairs format where your team is only riding once every 3 heats or so during a meeting.

There might be a case for a handful of countries to stage a separate Test Championship linking bi-lateral home and away matches/series together over a season or even longer. But when you'd find time in an already crowded calendar is another matter. 

[False dawn]

53 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I think very few countries could put out competitive test match teams, which would require anywhere from 6 to 8 riders. 

It would essentially preclude countries (e.g. Australia and the US) where it's impractical for them to stage home matches, whilst riding matches at neutral venues would probably be a financial disaster. As it stands, people have already pointed out the flaws of the Best Pairs format where your team is only riding once every 3 heats or so during a meeting.

There might be a case for a handful of countries to stage a separate Test Championship linking bi-lateral home and away matches/series together over a season or even longer. But when you'd find time in an already crowded calendar is another matter. 

But the last time we ran such a competition apart from the WTC was the 1973 Daily Mirror International Tournament. The fixture diary was full in those days and we fitted it in. Only England had home fixtures. But the competition went down to a run off at Wembley in front of 41000 fan.
For sure the world has moved on, but a test match series run on a league format sounds pretty attractive to me.

[iris123]

13 minutes ago, False dawn said:

But the last time we ran such a competition apart from the WTC was the 1973 Daily Mirror International Tournament. The fixture diary was full in those days and we fitted it in. Only England had home fixtures. But the competition went down to a run off at Wembley in front of 41000 fan.
For sure the world has moved on, but a test match series run on a league format sounds pretty attractive to me.

Think back in 1973 there were a few teams relatively equal or competitive at least. Ok they had to combine Norway and Denmark. But the number of actual riders cometing has dropped dramatically since then. One reason of course is riders are or were riding in 3 or more leagues now, when back then it was two at the most. And from a GB point of view, I guess we would be competing with Latvia, Sweden and Czecho instead of Russia, Poland and Denmark. Might not be so attractive as back in the Peter Collins days

[PolskiZuzel]

10 minutes ago, False dawn said:

(...) For sure the world has moved on, but a test match series run on a league format sounds pretty attractive to me.

I wholeheartedly agree with you... In my opinion league format match between two countries is the only test of any value. In the WTC format we have  individual riders aiming for individual win, and only total points scored by each rider representing given country are counted in. One might say that with with such a format we might as well add up individual score of the SGP riders representing given country, and not bother with anything else.

[MARK246]

41 minutes ago, False dawn said:

But the last time we ran such a competition apart from the WTC was the 1973 Daily Mirror International Tournament. The fixture diary was full in those days and we fitted it in. Only England had home fixtures. But the competition went down to a run off at Wembley in front of 41000 fan.
For sure the world has moved on, but a test match series run on a league format sounds pretty attractive to me.

The test matches run in the 80's, against both Danmark and America were always well supported and well sponsored. Having national TV coverage, almost live, showings on saturday ITV, but are fans to thin on the ground now. 

[IainB]

3 hours ago, Bagpuss said:

As for Kemp, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. 

That's fair enough we all have differing opinions, I really hope the lad goes on to have a great future though 

[enotian]

6 hours ago, RPNY said:

Have to agree with all of this. I know people got of up of Poland Winning but last 4 seasons of SWC there were 3 different winners. Now we've had Russia win 3 times in a row and they will be favorites next year with these 2. SWC threw up some outstanding racing.  Was madness to change it IMO.

Maybe Pairs one year, SWC the next. But Just rolling out the SoN every year isnt that much fun anymore...

Agree with this entirely but just to be fair to FIM I think the idea of SON was that more countries could participate rather than there'd be more varied winners as such.  The SWC only had 8 or 9 nations, one or two of which were also rans.

The problem this year was we didn't get to see the likes of France, Finland, Italy, Slovakia and Slovenia so it lost that element.

On that basis I think SON has a place  but agree that SWC was superior

[False dawn]

14 hours ago, enotian said:

On that basis I think SON has a place  but agree that SWC was superior

There was a time that we had both a team champonship and a pairs championship.

One is not a substitute for the other. When we moved to the Speedway of Nations, it was mooted that it would alternate with the Team Championship, year on year. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by False dawn

[Humphrey Appleby]

11 hours ago, False dawn said:

But the last time we ran such a competition apart from the WTC was the 1973 Daily Mirror International Tournament. The fixture diary was full in those days and we fitted it in. Only England had home fixtures. 

There wasn't anything like the competition from foreign leagues in those days, nor the Speedway Grand Prix that required complicated travel schedules. 

The Daily Mirror Tournament, was I think a one-off as well. 

[Ben91]

20 hours ago, iainb said:

... And who's to say that Drew Kemp won't turn out to be another Josh Auty or Ben Howe or Savalas Clouting etc. etc. (to pick a few riders names at random, there are many many more). If you're a late bloomer or want to do things your own way there's no place for you under the current regime. One wonders whether Tai Woffinden would be on the GB Speedway scrap heap during his younger "Party" days? Drew Kemp should be learning his Speedway in the lower leagues and on the continent, serving his time before being given a shot in a World Final, I really hope he goes on to prove me wrong.

Kemp shows the right attitude now and with all the respect in the world to Lawson, the Worralls, Kerr etc. he wouldn’t have done any worse than they would. The same can be said for Brennan, Rowe, Palin or any other young prospect we have right now. The difference is their potential ceiling is much higher than that of the riders who have been on the scene and flattered to deceive for years now. Those riders have had years to chase experience in Europe but have mainly spent them doubling up here instead. The right decision was made in my opinion, if there is no chance of winning then use these events to help our chances of winning in future. The second Tai (or Rob Lambert) is unavailable we have no hope in the SON. 

[sommelier]

18 hours ago, iainb said:

The thing is though "the kids" are probably living at home with their parents and I suspect are being funded by them. The older riders more likely than not have families to support and have probably had to make hard financial choices this year, that does not mean they have no ambition

To give you a idea how lacklustre yong British riders are, example, after Dan Bewleys last couple meetings on Tai bikes, i emailed him regarding putting in a SERIOUS amount of money to help him out with equipment as i felt watching him on Tais bikes he showed so much more potential.

Didnt even get a reply! This year i put in over £20.000 on a young British rider, but not for me anymore. Anders Rowe is one on my rador for next year.

The point im making, i contacted a young Pole that caught my eye a few years ago, before i could stop typing i got a reply! So looks very likely i will be putting my money in to a Pole next year, shame really

[Najjer]

2 hours ago, sommelier said:

To give you a idea how lacklustre yong British riders are, example, after Dan Bewleys last couple meetings on Tai bikes, i emailed him regarding putting in a SERIOUS amount of money to help him out with equipment as i felt watching him on Tais bikes he showed so much more potential.

Didnt even get a reply! This year i put in over £20.000 on a young British rider, but not for me anymore. Anders Rowe is one on my rador for next year.

The point im making, i contacted a young Pole that caught my eye a few years ago, before i could stop typing i got a reply! So looks very likely i will be putting my money in to a Pole next year, shame really

Could it be you used an incorrect or out of date email address? Might be worth following that up via his social media channel to double check. I'd imagine any rider would be only too willing to take such a generous offer on board.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Najjer

[sommelier]

1 minute ago, Najjer said:

Could it be you used an incorrect or out of date email address? Might be worth following that up via his social media channel to double check. I'd imagine any rider would be only too willing to take such a generous offer on board.

The email adress was ref sponsorship only 3 weeks ago

[IainB]

2 hours ago, Ben91 said:

Kemp shows the right attitude now and with all the respect in the world to Lawson, the Worralls, Kerr etc. he wouldn’t have done any worse than they would. The same can be said for Brennan, Rowe, Palin or any other young prospect we have right now. The difference is their potential ceiling is much higher than that of the riders who have been on the scene and flattered to deceive for years now. Those riders have had years to chase experience in Europe but have mainly spent them doubling up here instead. The right decision was made in my opinion, if there is no chance of winning then use these events to help our chances of winning in future. The second Tai (or Rob Lambert) is unavailable we have no hope in the SON. 

I'm sure Kemp does show the right attitude and like I've said before I wish him well in his future my real issue is with the management and selection of riders. Having a good attitude and deserving a place in a world final are 2 completely different things, Adam Roynon had/has a superb attitude you'd never select him for a world final slot though. Surely you blood riders with potential in test matches, there was a world championship medal up for grabs at the SoN and with the likelihood of the track being weather affected always being high. My general point is how long do you keep sacrificing what you've currently got in the hope of what you might get? Sounds a bit like somebody with a scratch card addiction when I put it like that ()

GB Speedway needs to make it's mind up on what its mission is. Is it to develop a crop of young riders to fill up team places in league speedway or is it to develop all riders no matter what their age. Also if a rider doesn't buy in to the GB Speedway mission should this exclude them from selection?

Edited October 20, 2020 by iainb

[Najjer]

4 minutes ago, sommelier said:

The email adress was ref sponsorship only 3 weeks ago

My point was that could you have perhaps used an out of date or incorrect email address for Dan, hence him not actually replying.

Just seems a crying shame as it's clear from those final two matches in Poland that Dan could be a cracking rider whilst on some decent kit, which he is clearly lacking in currently.