SON 2020

[chunky]

52 minutes ago, False dawn said:

I see what you mean.

But don't you think that the results of a competition such as the World Championship or the SON should make sense in retrospect? In particular, don't you think the uninitiated should easily make sense of such results?

Firstly, the uninitiated don't give a crap! Even many of the initiated don't...

Some sports, while not unique, don't conform to convention, and for good reason. Speedway is just one of those, but the key to it is "team". Just because one rider wins a race doesn't mean that they are the best TEAM. If you went by race-winners, then I could be Tai's partner in such an event, and WE could win, even though we aren't anywhere close to being the best TEAM.

Now, what about cycling? The Team Pursuit is not decided by the FIRST placed rider on the team, but when the THIRD rider finishes.

Biathlon. The TEAM biathlon was decided by where ALL the team members finished.

F1. Lewis Hamilton could win EVERY GP, but it doesn't mean that Mercedes would win the Constructors Championship, as it is decided by ALL team members.

[False dawn]

6 minutes ago, chunky said:

Firstly, the uninitiated don't give a crap! Even many of the initiated don't...

Some sports, while not unique, don't conform to convention, and for good reason. Speedway is just one of those, but the key to it is "team". Just because one rider wins a race doesn't mean that they are the best TEAM. If you went by race-winners, then I could be Tai's partner in such an event, and WE could win, even though we aren't anywhere close to being the best TEAM.

Now, what about cycling? The Team Pursuit is not decided by the FIRST placed rider on the team, but when the THIRD rider finishes.

Biathlon. The TEAM biathlon was decided by where ALL the team members finished.

F1. Lewis Hamilton could win EVERY GP, but it doesn't mean that Mercedes would win the Constructors Championship, as it is decided by ALL team members.

Well let's unpick that shall we?

You can't win the team pursuit in cycing without having the winner.
Don't know about the biathon. Running one is good in my book.
F1 is not decided by the last race of the year.

The point is, speedway in the SON does it different. The whole championship is decided by one race. Winning the race and having the last is a 3 all to anyone with half an eye. By intuition, you can't lose the championship by winning the final. Whatever the scoring system, the two best teams should arrive at the final. Whatever happens from there onwards should at least appear to be fair.

To be honest, I'd sign up to the top scoring team, without a final, being the winner. You can have any race scores you like then.

[Humphrey Appleby]

9 hours ago, False dawn said:

To be honest, I'd sign up to the top scoring team, without a final, being the winner. You can have any race scores you like then.

Best Pairs competitions by their nature are not well suited to knockout or winner-takes-all formats. There's, what, a one-third chance in each heat of each team scoring the same number of points unless you have a contrived scoring system, so you can really only go on accumulated points over a number of heats.

Ultimately it's a flawed format for a major (televised) team competition. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Humphrey Appleby

[Ben91]

Pairs racing should use the 4-3-2-0 points format as this encourages team riding. Why it isn’t used in the SON is beyond me. The whole two day event coming down to a single final heat is also farcical but the rules are the same for every team entering. Imagine the football World Cup final going to a penalty shoot out every time regardless of the final score of the match though. Stupid right? That’s Speedway. 

[racers and royals]

2 minutes ago, Ben91 said:

Pairs racing should use the 4-3-2-0 points format as this encourages team riding. Why it isn’t used in the SON is beyond me. The whole two day event coming down to a single final heat is also farcical but the rules are the same for every team entering. Imagine the football World Cup final going to a penalty shoot out every time regardless of the final score of the match though. Stupid right? That’s Speedway. 

It is used in SON(2020)

[IainB]

1 hour ago, Ben91 said:

Pairs racing should use the 4-3-2-0 points format as this encourages team riding. Why it isn’t used in the SON is beyond me. The whole two day event coming down to a single final heat is also farcical but the rules are the same for every team entering. Imagine the football World Cup final going to a penalty shoot out every time regardless of the final score of the match though. Stupid right? That’s Speedway. 

The problem with holding a "Final" race in any pairs competition, whatever the scoring format, is there's big potential for a massive anti-climax. A tape touch, 2nd warning, e/f from the start, any type of exclusion and all of the tension is lost. It amazes me that the authorities still want to paly roulette with this system for pairs meetings as it's bitten them on the bum a few tomes in the past

[Najjer]

1 hour ago, Ben91 said:

Pairs racing should use the 4-3-2-0 points format as this encourages team riding. Why it isn’t used in the SON is beyond me. The whole two day event coming down to a single final heat is also farcical but the rules are the same for every team entering. Imagine the football World Cup final going to a penalty shoot out every time regardless of the final score of the match though. Stupid right? That’s Speedway. 

To an extent - but using your example of football, isn't this just the same as a team winning every game in the group stages, beating everybody 5-0 in the knockout stages and then losing to a team whose scraped into the final?

My personal view is that a 'final race' is always needed as it mantains excitement and unpredictability right until the final heat of the night. Otherwise the meeting could be over by the half way point and it creates abit of a non event and anti climax.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Najjer

[Ben91]

14 minutes ago, Najjer said:

To an extent - but using your example of football, isn't this just the same as a team winning every game in the group stages, beating everybody 5-0 in the knockout stages and then losing to a team whose scraped into the final?

My personal view is that a 'final race' is always needed as it mantains excitement and unpredictability right until the final heat of the night. Otherwise the meeting could be over by the half way point and it creates abit of a non event and anti climax.

Again, to an extent. It’s not the perfect analogy granted. Teams qualify for the World Cup final through 90 minute games and the final is a 90 minute game, not a penalty shoot out. 
 

As Iainb said there can be unpredictable elements to a final heat which can leave it as a damp squib. It is no guarantee of excitement and we have to remember this is a sporting event, the best team should win as opposed to the one who wins a final heat. That’s my opinion of all championship play offs, final heats in individual meetings etc. 

Ultimately of course the rules are what they are and every competitor knows that going in. The playing field is the same for everyone. 

[Fromafar]

15 hours ago, Wee Eck said:

Wasn’t Cook invited to be part of the squad training before what should have been the start of the season - in Southampton with the Marines or something like that - but declined to attend?

Not sure, but think there was something .! 

[Fromafar]

2 minutes ago, Ben91 said:

Again, to an extent. It’s not the perfect analogy granted. Teams qualify for the World Cup final through 90 minute games and the final is a 90 minute game, not a penalty shoot out. 
 

As Iainb said there can be unpredictable elements to a final heat which can leave it as a damp squib. It is no guarantee of excitement and we have to remember this is a sporting event, the best team should win as opposed to the one who wins a final heat. That’s my opinion of all championship play offs, final heats in individual meetings etc. 

Ultimately of course the rules are what they are and every competitor knows that going in. The playing field is the same for everyone. 

Let’s face it the SON was only introduced to try and stop Poland winning everything(which it succeeded).Not a patch on World Team Cup Final.Thats Speedway though,they don’t have good record when it comes to change.

[IainB]

2 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Let’s face it the SON was only introduced to try and stop Poland winning everything(which it succeeded).Not a patch on World Team Cup Final.Thats Speedway though,they don’t have good record when it comes to change.

As it seems that Russia are now the emerging nation in Speedway, perhaps it's time for a return to the 4/5 rider format?

[Najjer]

4 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Let’s face it the SON was only introduced to try and stop Poland winning everything(which it succeeded).Not a patch on World Team Cup Final.Thats Speedway though,they don’t have good record when it comes to change.

 

1 minute ago, iainb said:

As it seems that Russia are now the emerging nation in Speedway, perhaps it's time for a return to the 4/5 rider format?

The original Speedway World Cup was always one of the highlights of the year. There used to be some epic meetings using the 4 teams of 5 format.

Ironically, even with that format I think Russia would probably take some stopping... unless you hold a few rounds at Lakeside or Eastbourne again

Edited October 13, 2020 by Najjer

[racers and royals]

JK`s excellent racecards for the 2 SON days

1st day https://www.speedwayservice.at/images/racecards/2020/SoN2020-F1.pdf

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by racers and royals

[stevehone]

4320 scoring has, for me at least, made the PL Pairs an exciting meeting to watch for a number of years, with good races at the back trying not to finish last.

the biggest downside i see with it though is when there is an exclusion/fall especially come semi final time 

[crescent girl]

48 minutes ago, stevehone said:

4320 scoring has, for me at least, made the PL Pairs an exciting meeting to watch for a number of years, with good races at the back trying not to finish last.

the biggest downside i see with it though is when there is an exclusion/fall especially come semi final time 

Debbie Hancock might agree with you on that last point! 

[Humphrey Appleby]

5 hours ago, Najjer said:

To an extent - but using your example of football, isn't this just the same as a team winning every game in the group stages, beating everybody 5-0 in the knockout stages and then losing to a team whose scraped into the final?

In most World Cup type tournaments, the finalists have usually not competed against all the other teams earlier in the tournament, and have often not met themselves until the Final. It's therefore not possible to say they've met the strongest teams, regardless of their early results.

In the standard Best Pairs format, every team will have already ridden against every team before reaching the Final - in fact twice in the SON. It's therefore a bit farcical to decide the result on the basis of a contrived scoring system after 43 previous heats. 

5 hours ago, Najjer said:

My personal view is that a 'final race' is always needed as it mantains excitement and unpredictability right until the final heat of the night. Otherwise the meeting could be over by the half way point and it creates abit of a non event and anti climax.

You could have still have a Final, but give the team scoring more points in the earlier rounds the advantage of a point or something.

[Humphrey Appleby]

4 hours ago, iainb said:

As it seems that Russia are now the emerging nation in Speedway, perhaps it's time for a return to the 4/5 rider format?

Can't think it would be that difficult to come up with a compromise format with 3+1 rider teams. Or run the Pairs event on Day 1, with a proper World Cup on Day 2. 

[SPEEDY69]

20 hours ago, chunky said:

Firstly, the uninitiated don't give a crap! Even many of the initiated don't...

Some sports, while not unique, don't conform to convention, and for good reason. Speedway is just one of those, but the key to it is "team". Just because one rider wins a race doesn't mean that they are the best TEAM. If you went by race-winners, then I could be Tai's partner in such an event, and WE could win, even though we aren't anywhere close to being the best TEAM.

Now, what about cycling? The Team Pursuit is not decided by the FIRST placed rider on the team, but when the THIRD rider finishes.

Biathlon. The TEAM biathlon was decided by where ALL the team members finished.

F1. Lewis Hamilton could win EVERY GP, but it doesn't mean that Mercedes would win the Constructors Championship, as it is decided by ALL team members.

Disagree with this.  First and fourth to me is the same as second and third - in no way are the two riders in second and third the better TEAM (not sure why we're using capitals but I'll go with it).  First and second or first and third then yes, they are the better TEAM.  Really don't like the points system at all as to me the whole point of speedway is to win the race.  I'd really love for the final to be two riders from one country out in first and second, miles ahead only for one of them to have an EF on the last bend and the other nation wins, because they were the best TEAM - bet they'd re-think it again for next year.

[SPEEDY69]

10 hours ago, Ben91 said:

Pairs racing should use the 4-3-2-0 points format as this encourages team riding. Why it isn’t used in the SON is beyond me. The whole two day event coming down to a single final heat is also farcical but the rules are the same for every team entering. Imagine the football World Cup final going to a penalty shoot out every time regardless of the final score of the match though. Stupid right? That’s Speedway. 

I don't think it does though.  Teams will want to get first and second or first and third every race if they can, else they risk not being in the final.

[Ben91]

2 hours ago, SPEEDY69 said:

I don't think it does though.  Teams will want to get first and second or first and third every race if they can, else they risk not being in the final.

Team riding is dead in fairness. But the thought process is that not finishing last is more important than finishing first in pairs racing and that makes perfect sense.