Just a thought

[hyderd]

.

Here's a thought. Each premiership match consists of 1-5 as normal 2 reserves as normal and run over 12 heats. Each team has 2 junior N/L riders, riding for them but must be 18 or under, their points are included in the teams total and their races are against each other over 3 heats say after heat 4 then after heat 7 and finally after heat 10,making 15 heats in total.

Yes or no.

[DC2]

39 minutes ago, hyderd said:

.

Here's a thought. Each premiership match consists of 1-5 as normal 2 reserves as normal and run over 12 heats. Each team has 2 junior N/L riders, riding for them but must be 18 or under, their points are included in the teams total and their races are against each other over 3 heats say after heat 4 then after heat 7 and finally after heat 10,making 15 heats in total.

Yes or no.

 

The only problem is that they will not be regulated by averages and go into the main team if they are really good, resulting in some teams with excellent ones having a major advantage.

[racers and royals]

49 minutes ago, hyderd said:

.

Here's a thought. Each premiership match consists of 1-5 as normal 2 reserves as normal and run over 12 heats. Each team has 2 junior N/L riders, riding for them but must be 18 or under, their points are included in the teams total and their races are against each other over 3 heats say after heat 4 then after heat 7 and finally after heat 10,making 15 heats in total.

Yes or no.

No- riders in 1-7 have a total of 24 rides split between them. They are going to be well pleased at losing 2/3 rides a meeting !!

[Baldyman]

Are there enough riders between 16 and 18? And the difference in ability could be huge 

[poolebolton]

No, we have a league structure for a reason so that progression can occur. This could also stop riders progressing that far is suddenly they are lambert or bewley. 
 

Also it’s just watering down the premiership in another form. 

[mikebv]

2 hours ago, poolebolton said:

No, we have a league structure for a reason so that progression can occur. This could also stop riders progressing that far is suddenly they are lambert or bewley. 
 

Also it’s just watering down the premiership in another form. 

We don't have Leagues structured for progression..

We do have Leagues structured to give riders without overseas contracts loads of races to earn money...

 

[DC2]

 

How about the NL meetings taking place with the PL and CL meetings?

So, for example, before the PL match between Belle Vue and Swindon there’s an NL match of Colts v Sprockets.

The NL teams could comprise just four riders each in eight heats.

It might be perceived as better value for money too, depending on the price, give clubs an incentive to crack on and complete both meetings within two hours, and give the NL riders a chance to meet the professional riders and get advice.

 

[Spl77]

This looks very similar to what was tried with the ill-fated 18 heat 8 man team Format of the mid 90s.

I still say the best every format I saw for league racing the the old National league 16 heat format followed by the 6 heat junior league match that followed. Oh happy days when the national league ran the sport as a successful professional sport for a few seasons

[mikebv]

22 minutes ago, Spl77 said:

This looks very similar to what was tried with the ill-fated 18 heat 8 man team Format of the mid 90s.

I still say the best every format I saw for league racing the the old National league 16 heat format followed by the 6 heat junior league match that followed. Oh happy days when the national league ran the sport as a successful professional sport for a few seasons

You are correct.

Only downside though would be the cost nowadays of 16 heats as well as the expenses to be paid of the second match.

Some struggle to pay out for 15 heats now with no second match..

Maybe a six man team/12 heat match would be cost effective?  All pairs race against each other for the first nine heats, then do a lowest scorers to the top for the last three heats?

No1 pairs up with No6, 5 with 2, 4 with 3 in the first nine races...

Then throw in a four man a side six heat 'junior match'? Both pairs race against each other then lowest and highest scorers in the last two races? Three races per rider..

18 heats in total, meaning all the 'senior' riders get four rides each, the 'junior' riders get track time, and the fans get 3 more races than they currently get now. 

And overall it may also be cheaper for the promotion paying out six less races at 'senior rates' over the two meetings the home income covers..?

Edited November 5, 2019 by mikebv

[DC2]

 

But if it’s Colts v Sprockets, as amateurs, over 6 or 8 heats why would there be much extra expense, other than petrol in the tractor?

[mikebv]

1 minute ago, DC2 said:

 

But if it’s Colts v Sprockets, as amateurs, over 6 or 8 heats why would there be much extra expense, other than petrol in the tractor?

I would imagine even 'amateur' racing would have 'fixed costs' eg insurance and medical cover..

Would the ref cost more too?

"Pay to ride" like so many other Motorsports do at entry level would work I would think and maybe persuade more clubs to run such events?

[4thbender]

There was a report put forward about this time last year called the Pathfinder Report. No-one seems to know who put it together but it has the ring of authority about it, although as far as I can see none of it was acted on. It's worth a read for those who missed it. It can be viewed at: http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/87061-pathfinder-report-and-recommendations-2018/

The recommendations it makes for team and match structuring appear to have some logic. it suggests that teams will sign five riders in the main body of the team and in addition sign a “reserve team” of three riders, consisting of riders "borrowed" from the NL. Matches will then be contested over 13 heats, but will be preceded by a match of three heats contested between the two teams’ reserve riders, with each of the three reserve riders having two races. Presumably the points scored over these three heats will not count towards the match scores. Having viewed their respective three reserve riders in action, team managers will then nominate two of the reserves to fill the no. 6 and 7 places in the main team.

Over the subsequent 13 heats the five riders in the main body of the team will have four scheduled rides and the two reserves will have two scheduled rides each (but may be nominated for additional reserve rides). Riders in Heat 13 will be nominated by team managers (in much the same way as heat 15 currently).

If this scheme were adopted it might even be possible to have a league table of "B" teams. Just a thought.

 

[g13webb]

The main problems for the promoters in trying to  promote this sport are many.   1,  Bikes too fast;   2 Bikes too expensive;   3, No equality in the standard of Riders,   4, Unfit tracks;  4, Too many processional races,  5,  High admission prices;    6, Poor VFM.    stated  just as an examples,  so  I fail to see how the makeup of the teams will make much difference..     

[tellboy]

29 minutes ago, g13webb said:

The main problems for the promoters in trying to  promote this sport are many.   1,  Bikes too fast;   2 Bikes too expensive;   3, No equality in the standard of Riders,   4, Unfit tracks;  4, Too many processional races,  5,  High admission prices;    6, Poor VFM.    stated  just as an examples,  so  I fail to see how the makeup of the teams will make much difference..     

If bike /engines were standardized this would get rid of 1,2,3 the second 4 and 6 imo.Unfortunately this won't happen.

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, g13webb said:

The main problems for the promoters in trying to  promote this sport are many.   1,  Bikes too fast;   2 Bikes too expensive;   3, No equality in the standard of Riders,   4, Unfit tracks;  4, Too many processional races,  5,  High admission prices;    6, Poor VFM.    stated  just as an examples,  so  I fail to see how the makeup of the teams will make much difference..     

It's not so much the bikes are too fast, for me, it's more the tracks are not designed to handle their speed..

The NSS proves time and time again that fast bikes on that track can deliver awesome entertainment...

As does Poland, Sweden and the GP'S, SEC, SON etc..

High speed and great, close racing is the 'Holy Grail' for Speedway. It's just not delivered sadly over here at too many places.

100% spot on with points 2 to 6. 

Can't see too many of them ever getting overcome though to be honest, given how far away the Sport over here actually is from being able to correct each point you make..

Edited November 6, 2019 by mikebv

[Baldyman]

Nothing wrong with bikes, it's the tracks,,, those ssme bikes will be good on good tracks and poor on poor tracks, whatever country they are in. You are more likely to get better close racing on tracks that have multi lines into corners and on tracks that you don't have to scub all your speed off going into bends.  Flowing race tracks most of the time offer better racing in most motor sports. 

[Crabba59]

3 tracks come to mind where you can see great racing week in and out,  redcar, Somerset and Glasgow.  So it shows put time into tracks you got what the paying public want??????

[g13webb]

11 hours ago, mikebv said:

It's not so much the bikes are too fast, for me, it's more the tracks are not designed to handle their speed..

The NSS proves time and time again that fast bikes on that track can deliver awesome entertainment...

As does Poland, Sweden and the GP'S, SEC, SON etc..

High speed and great, close racing is the 'Holy Grail' for Speedway. It's just not delivered sadly over here at too many places.

100% spot on with points 2 to 6. 

Can't see too many of them ever getting overcome though to be honest, given how far away the Sport over here actually is from being able to correct each point you make..

The new Belle Vue is unique, it that it was built for the modern day speedway bike,  and will usually deliver great racing.  Unfortunately the majority of the remaining tracks are not suited to these high revving machines.    Years back the bikes had more torque at low speeds, giving the rider better control.  Now the bikes are high revving speed machines,   as soon as riders cut the revs they lose all the power, and this results in many processional races...   Looking back to the Peter Collins and Michael Lee era,  there were some titanic battles,  equally as good as anything today.  Back then the rider was  much more important than the machine was.   So thinking along them lines,  I'm sure these highly tuned machines  add far too much costs that the sport cant afford,   without adding any significant extra to the sport.  When you think along the lines of the sport's retainability,  these machines are slowly but surely killing it.....

Rather than find ways of meeting these costs,   why don't we think of ways of reducing them..... 

[Sings4Speedway]

On 11/5/2019 at 4:20 PM, DC2 said:

 

But if it’s Colts v Sprockets, as amateurs, over 6 or 8 heats why would there be much extra expense, other than petrol in the tractor?

 

On 11/5/2019 at 4:26 PM, mikebv said:

I would imagine even 'amateur' racing would have 'fixed costs' eg insurance and medical cover..

Would the ref cost more too?

"Pay to ride" like so many other Motorsports do at entry level would work I would think and maybe persuade more clubs to run such events?

Even in the current MSDL setup there are expenses and more paid to riders and the suggestions here are to get NL level riders to turn up and race for nothing / a can of fuel sadly its dream on. Development league riders break their own banks repeatedly due to the love of riding and the outside chance that they might make the grade and land a league spot. 

Many also do it because there is no fee to ride and it is free laps (less the initial setup fees, bike fuel, oil, engine wear& tear, diesel, van running costs and time off work). If it was pay to ride with a big risk of the event getting cancelled the numbers would be non existent. 

The refs deem 22 heats a double header and require double the fees hence only 1 x 6 heat 2nd halves can be run and even then they are often not overseen to the same standards as expected in a main match.

[DC2]

16 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Even in the current MSDL setup there are expenses and more paid to riders and the suggestions here are to get NL level riders to turn up and race for nothing / a can of fuel sadly its dream on. Development league riders break their own banks repeatedly due to the love of riding and the outside chance that they might make the grade and land a league spot. 

Many also do it because there is no fee to ride and it is free laps (less the initial setup fees, bike fuel, oil, engine wear& tear, diesel, van running costs and time off work). If it was pay to ride with a big risk of the event getting cancelled the numbers would be non existent. 

The refs deem 22 heats a double header and require double the fees hence only 1 x 6 heat 2nd halves can be run and even then they are often not overseen to the same standards as expected in a main match.

 

I wasn’t proposing pay to ride.

And I assumed PL clubs would cover some expenses of the NL riders, pay an appearance fee, arrange sponsorship and help them with machinery and advice.

It’s clear that some 15 year old NL riders are very promising and one would have thought that PL clubs would be delighted to take Palin and the Thompson twins under their wing, just as they would have snapped up Woffinden, Ward and Lambert.