Should the points limit be set to the highest team average from the previous season?

[robins les]

20 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

HE says he wants to concentrate all his efforts on winning the World Championship and that means racing in just one league. 

Riders who have said that in the past have found out that the lack of regular rides has cost them & not helped them to improve their GP form.

[Aces51]

1 minute ago, DC2 said:

 

That sounds like a mantra which isn’t actually true.

How did Somerset afford the World Champion in 2018?

I’m not saying we can afford the superstar Poles or the top eight in the GPs, but riders like Lindgren, Kasprzak, Przedpelski, Kim Nilsson, Lahti, Zengota and Gomolski were all riding here just two years ago.

And Simon Stead seems up for the challenge. Maybe he still has a good relationship with Vaculik:

http://www.speedwaygb.co.uk/news.php?extend.37661

 

 

You say it's a mantra that which isn't actually true but then give a list of riders who, Lindgren apart, wouldn't qualify as the best riders in the world, some would struggle to be heat leaders in the UK and Lindgren has already made clear he won't ride here. 

As for Somerset, hardly a good example considering that at the end of 2018 they opted to return to the CL. I doubt they would have done that if they're season at the top level had been a financial success.

[A ORLOV]

42 minutes ago, B.V 72 said:

The way to strengthen teams in our league is savvy management by spotting and signing up and coming riders on low averages who then go on to improve their averages.These riders then go on to be the leagues stars replacing riders like Nicholls,Harris and Andersen who's age is catching them up a little,

Swindon have shown us how to do this twice by signing Musielak and Jenssen who have been a major factor in two of Swindons league titles.

There will always be up and coming stars the secret is spotting them early and getting them signed up before anyone else this is where a good manager is worth his weight in gold.To me watching an up and coming rider shine gives me more of a buzz than the club signing an over priced super star who can often leave you disappointed.

I agree with this but then if the riders are really good they get an average which often rules them out of the team a couple of seasons later.  I am happy for Swindon to bring on good riders but not for them to then go to other teams or even abroad.  In the past we have had to lose Batch for a season and Kildemand because of the team limits, and if the one over the eight rule is kept we are likely to lose Batch again, who has been great this season.  Both the fans and the riders get fed up with good Swindon riders leaving the club and although not the only reason the fans and youngsters may well be put off from attending after following then losing their favorite rider. It could also put off sponsors from supporting an individual rider. 

[DC2]

13 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

You say it's a mantra that which isn't actually true but then give a list of riders who, Lindgren apart, wouldn't qualify as the best riders in the world, some would struggle to be heat leaders in the UK and Lindgren has already made clear he won't ride here. 

As for Somerset, hardly a good example considering that at the end of 2018 they opted to return to the CL. I doubt they would have done that if they're season at the top level had been a financial success.

 

You said “the best riders return”, but I didn’t think you meant the GP top eight, because we haven’t had them for years.

Three of the seven I mentioned rode in the top league in Poland and would be respectable heatleaders, while the other four should be six pointers (although you might have to replace Zengota with Woryna, Wozniak or Freddie Jacobsen as he doesn’t appear to have ridden this year).

 

[Trees]

9 hours ago, Bagpuss said:

A farce maybe but we have a top division which performs in front of multiple full stadiums every week and sells its TV rights for billions!

Oh don't I know it, people will pump loads of money into their football club, 3 new football tops per season, season ticket, away matches etc etc, if only speedway teams had fans with the same love for the clubs as football fans!!   It's more that I don't want certain teams in speedway to always win (ala British Premiership football, I know now and again a team amazingly wins the title, eg Leicester) although tbf it seems to turn out that way ....... but I think it would be even more of a definite if we didn't have a points limit .....

[Aces51]

1 hour ago, DC2 said:

 

You said “the best riders return”, but I didn’t think you meant the GP top eight, because we haven’t had them for years.

Three of the seven I mentioned rode in the top league in Poland and would be respectable heatleaders, while the other four should be six pointers (although you might have to replace Zengota with Woryna, Wozniak or Freddie Jacobsen as he doesn’t appear to have ridden this year).

 

I assume when people talk about the best riders or top riders that they are talking about GP standard or, at least on the fringes of that standard. We already have plenty of riders of the Zengota, Woryna, Jakobsen standard and better. I'm not saying they wouldn't be welcomed but they are not improving the standard of rider, we've already got many 6/7 point riders.

[DC2]

31 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

I assume when people talk about the best riders or top riders that they are talking about GP standard or, at least on the fringes of that standard. We already have plenty of riders of the Zengota, Woryna, Jakobsen standard and better. I'm not saying they wouldn't be welcomed but they are not improving the standard of rider, we've already got many 6/7 point riders.

 

Not an improvement?

As you say, they are 6/7 pointers and there are 23 riders in the PL with averages below 6.

 

[theblueboy]

2 hours ago, B.V 72 said:

The way to strengthen teams in our league is savvy management by spotting and signing up and coming riders on low averages who then go on to improve their averages.These riders then go on to be the leagues stars replacing riders like Nicholls,Harris and Andersen who's age is catching them up a little,

Swindon have shown us how to do this twice by signing Musielak and Jenssen who have been a major factor in two of Swindons league titles.

There will always be up and coming stars the secret is spotting them early and getting them signed up before anyone else this is where a good manager is worth his weight in gold.To me watching an up and coming rider shine gives me more of a buzz than the club signing an over priced super star who can often leave you disappointed.

No one is alluding to overpaid superstars being included. Surely supporters want to see Fred, Tai and JD? 

I would suspect that any respectable UK speedway fan would much prefer a team of top notch British talent coming through but there has to be a pathway for the talent to surface. We had the reserves position designated for British talent but as per usual there were certain teams that took the proverbial and this was disbanded. For the record, I enjoyed seeing both Steve Worrall and Chas Wright develop from Swindon reserves in to decent speedway riders, however, in any sport you also want to see the best talent on show.

Weakening the product with no clear pathway for UK riders to flourish and keeping averages artificially low to try and force the top riders away is just ridiculous. The promoters have to bite the bullet to reverse the trend so the sport grows. It is not something that is going to happen overnight and this has to be long term goal. 

Weakening the product just to keep costs down would be fine but no one has made a profit on the back of the averages being kept low, so the model that some promoters want does not not work. I wonder what the Peterborough promotion lost this year, given that they had no stars in their line up?

Therefore, change the record and let’s try something different. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[Skidder1]

3 hours ago, DC2 said:

 

Just analyse that though. 

You assume a 46.34 limit will

”increase costs”:

Will it? On the face of it Peterborough could have two new 8 point riders to replace Garrity and Ostergaard and yes, you would expect Zagar and Kildemand (for example) to cost a lot more money, but, boy, what a cracking team would they have (Zagar, Wright, Tungate, Hans Andersen, Kildemand, Nicholls, Proctor), almost certainly title favourites and the crowds should increase considerably as a result. Could such expenditure therefore break even?

Swindon’s costs, with the same team, would be about the same, and the other five clubs (with Sheffield replacing Poole) would only have to replace a reserve or two with a five or six pointer, at little extra cost, to be competitive. There were seven 5 to 6 pointers without clubs at the end of the season.

That would leave an eighth club starting from scratch, but if it were a financially solid and well supported one, like Glasgow, it could cope.

You say “riders are not available”:

As you can see above, that’s not the case for a seven team league, there are several riders from this season who could return and strengthen clubs.

So we’re back to the eighth club. Could Glasgow get the likes of Chris Holder, Vaculik, Sundstrom and Bech? Are they ambitious enough?

 

Just as a matter of interest, how much individually do you think those 4 riders would demand in payment? eg Signing on fees, points money, mechanics, vans, air fares, accommodation etc?  What would be your ballpark estimates?

[DC2]

3 minutes ago, Skidder1 said:

Just as a matter of interest, how much individually do you think those 4 riders would demand in payment? eg Signing on fees, points money, mechanics, vans, air fares, accommodation etc?  What would be your ballpark estimates?

 

Would it be more than Doyle, Jensen, Musielak and Batchelor?

 

[Skidder1]

4 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

Would it be more than Doyle, Jensen, Musielak and Batchelor?

 

Probably. with Doyle and Batch living in UK there would be no air fares. I wasn't really looking for comparisons merely to ask what you thought they would demand?

[Aces51]

35 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

Not an improvement?

As you say, they are 6/7 pointers and there are 23 riders in the PL with averages below 6.

 

You misunderstand my point.  The discussion is about bringing back top riders. With the exception of Lindgren, who says he won't ride in the UK, none of those you mention are in that category. It is in that sense that they are not an improvement. None of them are the top riders that some on here are asking for and in reality are either not likely to come or to be too expensive.  

If I remember correctly, Poole didn't bring back Woryna and possibly Jakobsen because of the cost and had difficulty finding a replacement for Worrall because there was no suitable replacement left in the CL. 

 

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

3 hours ago, robins les said:

That's ignoring the fact the present points average covers up to heat 14, as all averages are based on 4 rides.

Heat 15 is still included- you just need to be able to understand maths at a slightly higher level than a primary school starter to work it out

[DC2]

1 hour ago, Skidder1 said:

Probably. with Doyle and Batch living in UK there would be no air fares. I wasn't really looking for comparisons merely to ask what you thought they would demand?

 

No idea, but presumably if Swindon can afford those four, another team can afford the other four, even if they cost a bit more? Especially if it means a few more hundred people through the gate and more revenue.

 

[DC2]

1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

You misunderstand my point.  The discussion is about bringing back top riders. With the exception of Lindgren, who says he won't ride in the UK, none of those you mention are in that category. It is in that sense that they are not an improvement. None of them are the top riders that some on here are asking for and in reality are either not likely to come or to be too expensive.  

If I remember correctly, Poole didn't bring back Woryna and possibly Jakobsen because of the cost and had difficulty finding a replacement for Worrall because there was no suitable replacement left in the CL. 

 

 

I thought the discussion was about whether seven or eight teams could be built to 46 points on a reasonable budget, not that we had to get the top eight riders in the world!

 

[stevebrum]

5 hours ago, Aces51 said:

Lindgren has already made clear he won't ride here. 

 

2 hours ago, Aces51 said:

With the exception of Lindgren, who says he won't ride in the UK, 

 

Where has this ‘says he won’t ride here’ come from? I’ve not read anything to confirm that.

I don’t think he will be back either just to confirm.

[Grachan]

1 hour ago, DC2 said:

 

No idea, but presumably if Swindon can afford those four, another team can afford the other four, even if they cost a bit more? Especially if it means a few more hundred people through the gate and more revenue.

 

Interesting comment in an interview with Rosco, during the play off final, where he said he might get in trouble with Terry Russell for putting Jason Doyle in heat 15. The indication from that is that Jason is on a higher rate than the others, and the reason he sometimes misses heat 15 is a financial one.

[Aces51]

51 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

 

Where has this ‘says he won’t ride here’ come from? I’ve not read anything to confirm that.

I don’t think he will be back either just to confirm.

Philip Rising said on this thread that Lindgren will not be riding in Sweden,  that he wants to concentrate on the World Championship and that he will only ride in one league.

I think it safe to say that will be Poland and therefore that he will not be riding in the UK and that the information must have come from Lindgren or a reliable source close to him.  otherwise,  I very much doubt that Philip Rising would have put what he did on here. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Aces51

[DC2]

Just now, Aces51 said:

Philip Rising said on this thread that Lindgren will not be riding in Sweden,  that he wants to concentrate on the World Championship and that he will only ride in one league.

I think it safe to say that will be Poland and therefore that he will not be riding in the UK and that the information must have come from Lindgren or a reliable source close to him. 

 

Unless he was talking about Woffinden.  

 

[Aces51]

On 10/24/2019 at 3:52 PM, PHILIPRISING said:

Freddie ... if you talking Lindgren he isn't even racing in Sweden next year. 

 

On 10/24/2019 at 4:02 PM, Call me wolfie said:

I'm well aware of that, and for his reasons in not riding in Sweden next year, which makes him more likely to be tempted back to the UK, in my opinion

 

On 10/24/2019 at 7:23 PM, PHILIPRISING said:

HE says he wants to concentrate all his efforts on winning the World Championship and that means racing in just one league. 

 

4 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

Unless he was talking about Woffinden.  

 

 Seems clear to me he is referring to Lindgren.