dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted November 1, 2019 Report Share Posted November 1, 2019 3 hours ago, arnieg said: A problem easily solved with some simple linear regression All sorts of relatively simple solutions but out of the grasp of those making the decisions I'd expect - also too many struggle with the most simplistic of calculations for the current averages as it is!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted November 1, 2019 Report Share Posted November 1, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Aces51 said: A quick look at the doubling up riders at the end of the season shows that the average conversion factor to convert their PL actual averages to their actual CL averages was 1.253. It varies from 1.93 to convert Wells actual PL average to his actual CL average down to 1.10 to do the same calculation for Jorgensen. As we know the conversion factor used was 1.5, which will increase to 1.6 next season. The evidence shows that 1.5 was too high. However, it was a deliberate BSPA policy to reduce the opportunities for doubling down for riders who didn't start the season in the CL. Bewley fell foul of this during the season when he wanted to get a CL place before he was given rides in Poland and Sweden. Using the 1.5 conversion he was saddled withsomething like a 10.5 CL average. The intention to increase the conversion factor by 0.1 every season, until it reaches 2.0, will make it more and more difficult for riders like Bewley to double down but more and more attractive for riders in the CL, who don't have a PL average, to double up. By way of example, next year Josh Pickering, who has a CL average of 6.93, would have a PL average of 4.33 and in 5 years time, 3.46. A severely flawed plan IMO - doesnt solve the doubling up problem and just makes manipulation by top flight clubs making changes more of a possibility Edited November 1, 2019 by dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r8gdp Posted November 1, 2019 Report Share Posted November 1, 2019 Bin the averages let teams sign who they want . Speedway s on it s knees in this country let's see how we go 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Bloke Posted November 1, 2019 Report Share Posted November 1, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, r8gdp said: Bin the averages let teams sign who they want . Speedway s on it s knees in this country let's see how we go Wouldn't be for me. I don't think it would make for a competitive league. And we can't afford another team to drop out. 7 is the minimum. Look at the Panthers in 2019.Reported crap crowds, fans not happy, and Buster said they/he lost money. If it was a free for all, i'm not sure they would be the only dejected team in 2020 if that happened. I don't have the answer tbh but I don't think no limit is it. Edited November 1, 2019 by Bald Bloke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bald Bloke said: Wouldn't be for me. I don't think it would make for a competitive league. And we can't afford another team to drop out. 7 is the minimum. Look at the Panthers in 2019.Reported crap crowds, fans not happy, and Buster said they/he lost money. If it was a free for all, i'm not sure they would be the only dejected team in 2020 if that happened. I don't have the answer tbh but I don't think no limit is it. Maybe they all start "equal" then after ''x' matches home and away whoever has the highest average becomes the benchmark for the rest to work too? Too often, and too early in the season, there is far too great a gap from top to bottom, and given the restrictive rules around allowed replacements all that seems to happen is the bottom teams do nothing but 'move around the deck chairs on the Titanic', and don't move forwards enough to improve a failing season.. It would also mean that by the end of the season teams should all be closer to each other with their final average meaning that maybe they could start to use the Champions figure as the starting point the year after? Whatever system followed using averages will be inherently flawed due to all the variables within its delivery, and its subjective nature, however ending each season with teams miles apart suggests it needs some improving to deliver what it's supposed to.. Edited November 2, 2019 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.V 72 Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 7 hours ago, mikebv said: Maybe they all start "equal" then after ''x' matches home and away whoever has the highest average becomes the benchmark for the rest to work too? Too often, and too early in the season, there is far too great a gap from top to bottom, and given the restrictive rules around allowed replacements all that seems to happen is the bottom teams do nothing but 'move around the deck chairs on the Titanic', and don't move forwards enough to improve a failing season.. It would also mean that by the end of the season teams should all be closer to each other with their final average meaning that maybe they could start to use the Champions figure as the starting point the year after? Whatever system followed using averages will be inherently flawed due to all the variables within its delivery, and its subjective nature, however ending each season with teams miles apart suggests it needs some improving to deliver what it's supposed to.. You mean like better run sports like footballs Premier league where any team can sign whoever they like and as it stands Liverpool have 28 points and Watford have 5. Any league system usually has a big difference in points scored between the top and bottom teams. At least in speedway all teams on paper start the season even and its down to the manager to be savvy enough to sign a team of improvers and riders that can score points home and away to gain points on the road and that's what will bring you success whatever the points limit is. Where in football the sign whoever you like system usually means money buys you success. In my opinion speedways system if far fairer for all the clubs in the league than football will ever be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner85 Posted November 3, 2019 Report Share Posted November 3, 2019 At one time Sweden had the team average for the following season set by the average of the top 3 teams in the season just departed. Problem is that tends to raise the average over a long period of time. The greater the average , the more experienced riders required and consequently larger wage bills. Using the Green sheet averages , our limit should be 42 in the Premier league and the Championship league. The NL should be a training ground for younger riders and therefore an agreed limit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC71 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 On 11/1/2019 at 10:57 PM, r8gdp said: Bin the averages let teams sign who they want . Speedway s on it s knees in this country let's see how we go How about a compromise........36.00 limit for team building, but for the lower 6 riders only. 7th rider could be whoever you wanted. Even have different riders sharing that 7th spot, although they could only ride for 1 team a season........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 Let teams build to whatever average they like, then for each meeting the difference forms a handicap for the team with the higher average. For example, Swindon builds to 45 and Sheffield builds to 40. Therefore Swindon start on -5 when they ride against Sheffield at Sheffield and -10 (to account for the home advantage) at Swindon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 Have an independent control board run the sport. Then put in a cap on the total amount of wages a club can pay it riders. So for argument sake a clubs had a wage cap of 10000 per meeting that would be upto the clubs how that was shared out among the 7 riders. If you wanted to go bulls out and sign 2 big expensive riders then fine but that would limit who you could sign further down. To make it work the riders are paid centrally from the independent body that runs the sport each club pays the 10000 to the central body after each home match. The end to average manipulation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 49 minutes ago, Spl77 said: Have an independent control board run the sport. Then put in a cap on the total amount of wages a club can pay it riders. So for argument sake a clubs had a wage cap of 10000 per meeting that would be upto the clubs how that was shared out among the 7 riders. If you wanted to go bulls out and sign 2 big expensive riders then fine but that would limit who you could sign further down. To make it work the riders are paid centrally from the independent body that runs the sport each club pays the 10000 to the central body after each home match. The end to average manipulation Been mentioned a few times over the years as a possible mechanic to keep things more equal, however, the threat is that you can still manipulate the figures through extra sponsorship for riders outside of a salary cap... Meaning you will still get some teams being able to afford more of the better riders than others can. But still officially pay out the salary cap. If you could have clear regulated control then it definitely could work. Rugby in both codes are strong in punishing breaches of the cap so it does have merit... Super League, in particular, have flexed their muscles a few times over the years to those who have breached the cap and the cap has shared the Grand Final trophy around a fair few teams, with a decent spread of others reaching the Final too.. And Union this week have reacted very severely to Saracens dominance over the past few years through allegedly exceeding what was agreed by all teams.. Looking at most clubs I would think £7k a match for Premiership and £5k for Championship would be nearer the affordability mark as £10k per match would need nearly a £30k income from each home match to pay for the two meetings, home and away, that it covers.. You would like to think that as winning a domestic Speedway title carries such little reward that Promoters might adhere to such a plan given it would help keep then solvent and keep clubs relatively equal.. As, unlike Sports that get major media coverage and financial rewards through success, Speedway doesn't have that temptation to get around any restrictions.. And anything that prevents a Promoter having to manipulate an average to build a team, or riders to improve their chances of a team place the following year, has to benefit the sport and it's fans.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyabb17 Posted November 10, 2019 Report Share Posted November 10, 2019 I think we should have a u21 at 7 & then a team limit or 42.5 for the remaining 6 riders 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted November 10, 2019 Report Share Posted November 10, 2019 What just any U21? If so last year Kings Lynn could've effectively built to 50 points with GP rider Robert Lambert at 7 .... Is that really what you want? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldyman Posted November 10, 2019 Report Share Posted November 10, 2019 Let's make it more interesting, and must have a 50 or over at 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Bloke Posted November 10, 2019 Report Share Posted November 10, 2019 Greg please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoombdog Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/10/2019 at 8:44 AM, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said: What just any U21? If so last year Kings Lynn could've effectively built to 50 points with GP rider Robert Lambert at 7 .... Is that really what you want? Clearly he means a under 21 Brit capped at a certain average level. Any ideas to get British reserve's back rather than a foreign ringer is good enough for me. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.V 72 Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) Re points limit back in the day when almost all the riders rode here I would be all for it as every club would be able to reach the new points limit.But today with the limited riders wanting to ride here no chance there would be some very weak teams which would leave us with boring uneven meetings and a boring uneven league.Theres already talk of riders giving our league a miss next year ie Fricke, Covatti etc so how the hell do all the teams build to a 46 + average.Only my opinion but I honestly can't see how it can be done. Edited November 12, 2019 by B.V 72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 45 minutes ago, thecoombdog said: Clearly he means a under 21 Brit capped at a certain average level. Any ideas to get British reserve's back rather than a foreign ringer is good enough for me. That would mean Rowe, Kemp, Kinsley, Edwards, Flint, Bickley, and Brennan riding in these positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC2 Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 23 minutes ago, B.V 72 said: Re points limit back in the day when almost all the riders rode here I would be all for it as every club would be able to reach the new points limit.But today with the limited riders wanting to ride here no chance there would be some very weak teams which would leave us with boring uneven meetings and a boring uneven league.Theres already talk of riders giving our league a miss next year ie Fricke, Covatti etc so how the hell do all the teams build to a 46 + average.Only my opinion but I honestly can't see how it can be done. You’re basing Fricke and Covatti leaving on rumour. Just the same as the rumour that Nicki P might come back! A couple of weeks ago Klindt was leaving too but now he’s being linked with Ipswich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC2 Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, arnieg said: That would mean Rowe, Kemp, Kinsley, Edwards, Flint, Bickley, and Brennan riding in these positions. How old are Bacon, Mountain, Hume and Bowtell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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