TotallyHonestJohn Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Aceslider said: Yes that is a point. Just suppose you took the view that there was no VAT output to declare on sale of the magazine, it doesn't take a maths genius to work out the potential underdeclaration of VAT going back to the point when programmes became magazines, if HMRC did not accept the terminology. Whatever the hypothetical underpayment might be, interest and penalties would then need to be added. Could quickly turn a solvent company into an insolvent one. As you say, could rumble on for a while. I wonder whether they will take the view that there is no point in pursuing given the lack of assets? To a large extent, from the sound of things, it is now academic so far as the new promotion is concerned, which is great news for Newcastle Speedway To be fair it's a bit more complicated than that with regards to VAT and whether there are assets or not they pursue the individual or the Directors... hence everyone could spend unpaid tax revenues then fold a company to negate the need to pay said tax and that's when there is a risk of prosecution... Honestly I would be seriously worried if I was a former director and when you look at companies house you see it boils down to one director and one person who signed off the accounts A quick internet search and you can see once the figures get towards the 100k mark then the HMRC see the value in putting the effort in to try and reclaim the unpaid taxes... There maybe trouble ahead... Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aceslider Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: To be fair it's a bit more complicated than that with regards to VAT and whether there are assets or not they pursue the individual or the Directors... hence everyone could spend unpaid tax revenues then fold a company to negate the need to pay said tax and that's when there is a risk of prosecution... Honestly I would be seriously worried if I was a former director and when you look at companies house you see it boils down to one director and one person who signed off the accounts A quick internet search and you can see once the figures get towards the 100k mark then the HMRC see the value in putting the effort in to try and reclaim the unpaid taxes... There maybe trouble ahead... Regards THJ The company's net assets shown by the last filed accounts at 30 November 2018 only amounted to £25K. The following season one imagines in financial terms would have been "difficult" so it is difficult to envisage any improvement on £25k and probably in reality a reduction from that value. Can't really see HMRC getting too excited in all honesty although they might arguably have a claim ahead of other unpaid unsecured creditors if there are any. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aceslider said: The company's net assets shown by the last filed accounts at 30 November 2018 only amounted to £25K. The following season one imagines in financial terms would have been "difficult" so it is difficult to envisage any improvement on £25k and probably in reality a reduction from that value. Can't really see HMRC getting too excited in all honesty although they might arguably have a claim ahead of other unpaid unsecured creditors if there are any. Honeslty There are no other unpaid unsecured creditors you have had that from the horses mouth.. If there were still issues the liquidators would deem RG an unfit director and he would be prevented from running the new venture... there is a mountain of case law on this and the issue is more technical than you may appreciate... That's why the issue has to be with VAT and you only pay the difference on your purchases and sales so very simply put if I was a taxi driver and put 60 quid of juice in my vehicle 10 quid of that is VAT what I have paid... so I take 5 people x 12 quid in fares and that equates to 50 quid for me and 10 quid VAT so I dont pay the VAT man anything... now I take another 5 fares at 12 quid and the VAT man now wants 10 quid off me and this keeps rolling on... Now look at all the items that attract VAT at the Speedway... like Sponsorship... Season Tickets... Gate Money... Shop Sales... Car Park Money and any other revenue that the club gets (except a zero rated match day magazine) and off set them against any outgoings.... VAT registered riders wages... fuels... plant maintenance and equipment... shale and track costs and any other expenditure (like producing a match day magazine) that the club needs to pay out and there are more examples on both sides of the equation... however you invariably end up with a positive towards the VAT man.... I am being a bit simplistic here but it is basically the mechanics of the thing... They (HMRC) are going back to 2013 apparently and I will bet anything you want that this is the issue and I don't know for sure what the figures are but many small businesses on similar turnovers can rack up between 3 to 8 grand a quarter so a VAT bill of 12 to 32k per annum... So take the mid point of that lot and 6 x 24k comes out at 144k and if my fag packet figures are correct then HMRC will be interviewing people... Rest assured and you can take that to the bank Tax Free... Regards THJ Edited October 28, 2020 by TotallyHonestJohn Missed out word 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justgotmecpc Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 48 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Honeslty There are no other unpaid unsecured creditors you have had that from the horses mouth.. If there were still issues the liquidators would deem RG an unfit director and he would be prevented from running the new venture... there is a mountain of case law on this and the issue is more technical than you may appreciate... That's why the issue has to be with VAT and you only pay the difference on your purchases and sales so very simply put if I was a taxi driver and put 60 quid of juice in my vehicle 10 quid of that is VAT what I have paid... so I take 5 people x 12 quid in fares and that equates to 50 quid for me and 10 quid VAT so I dont pay the VAT man anything... now I take another 5 fares at 12 quid and the VAT man now wants 10 quid off me and this keeps rolling on... Now look at all the items that attract VAT at the Speedway... like Sponsorship... Season Tickets... Gate Money... Shop Sales... Car Park Money and any other revenue that the club gets (except a zero rated match day magazine) and off set them against any outgoings.... VAT registered riders wages... fuels... plant maintenance and equipment... shale and track costs and any other expenditure (like producing a match day magazine) that the club needs to pay out and there are more examples on both sides of the equation... however you invariably end up with a positive towards the VAT man.... I am being a bit simplistic here but it is basically the mechanics of the thing... They (HMRC) are going back to 2013 apparently and I will bet anything you want that this is the issue and I don't know for sure what the figures are but many small businesses on similar turnovers can rack up between 3 to 8 grand a quarter so a VAT bill of 12 to 32k per annum... So take the mid point of that lot and 6 x 24k comes out at 144k and if my fag packet figures are correct then HMRC will be interviewing people... Rest assured and you can take that to the bank Tax Free... Regards THJ THJ you trying to get me into bother man you know I'm a very HONEST taxi driver 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 12 minutes ago, pienpeesman said: THJ you trying to get me into bother man you know I'm a very HONEST taxi driver Ave heard you use red diesel an thats tax free too isnt it? So you're ok... Regards THJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justgotmecpc Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 8 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Ave heard you use red diesel an thats tax free too isnt it? So you're ok... Regards THJ I wish red wine was VAT free.. Now that would be a result 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoff100 Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 A football player can have a benefit match ( cant spell test*****) and doesnt pat tax yet a poor coach driver gets stung for tax on any tips he might get lol , just saying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 a footballer is not meant to give a speech at his testimonial events though or it becomes chargeable! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 17 hours ago, pienpeesman said: THJ you trying to get me into bother man you know I'm a very HONEST taxi driver Didn't think there was one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenga Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 there will always be honest taxi drivers . otherwise they dont get repeat customers . same with speedway promoters ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justgotmecpc Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 3 hours ago, jenga said: there will always be honest taxi drivers . otherwise they dont get repeat customers . same with speedway promoters ! Remember to ring Dandy highwaymen taxis when your in the toon & I shall come to your rescue & leave your pockets empty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neila Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 Mr English was very outspoken when Workington were in debt / going out of business, looks like it's now come back to haunt him 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justgotmecpc Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 58 minutes ago, Neila said: Mr English was very outspoken when Workington were in debt / going out of business, looks like it's now come back to haunt him Should never criticise others as look what's happened now.. just thankful young granty is at the helm now... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontrader Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 On 10/28/2020 at 7:29 PM, arnieg said: Can I point out programmes are zero rated. However racecards are standard rated as they are principally for filling in. The HMRC leaflet on leaflets (!) and other printed materials provides very precise guidelines. For example a political or marketing leaflet is zero rated unless more than one third of it is a coupon or survey for filling in, detaching and returning. I believe the Sheffield 'pizza menu' racecards of a few years back were VATable, but in general speedway programmes will be zero rated. I thought the issue was A programme has more pages of adverts than text and is vatable A magazine has more text than adverts and is not vatable Sheffields racecard was all adverts and racecard so vat was due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, toontrader said: I thought the issue was A programme has more pages of adverts than text and is vatable A magazine has more text than adverts and is not vatable Sheffields racecard was all adverts and racecard so vat was due. A magazine consisting entirely of adverts would still be zero rated. Advertising leaflets are zero rated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 On 10/30/2020 at 11:04 PM, arnieg said: A magazine consisting entirely of adverts would still be zero rated. Advertising leaflets are zero rated. Honestly When it all comes out (if it ever does) I think it will be more than the none payment of VAT on a few clarty match day magazine's that may or may not attract a VAT levy Regards THJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSC67 Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 On 10/29/2020 at 10:15 AM, geoff100 said: A football player can have a benefit match ( cant spell test*****) and doesnt pat tax yet a poor coach driver gets stung for tax on any tips he might get lol , just saying. That's because his testimonial is usually organised by a committee separated from his club ( his employer ) so it's classed as a one of gift rather than earnings coming from his employer and is exempt from tax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 1 hour ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Honestly When it all comes out (if it ever does) I think it will be more than the none payment of VAT on a few clarty match day magazine's that may or may not attract a VAT levy Regards THJ There's no 'may or may not' about it, they definitely don't. Presumably you are alleging they did not account for VAT on a material part of their income (maybe sponsorship or under declared gate receipts?) or simply failed in their basic VAT compliance issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aceslider Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 2 hours ago, arnieg said: There's no 'may or may not' about it, they definitely don't. Presumably you are alleging they did not account for VAT on a material part of their income (maybe sponsorship or under declared gate receipts?) or simply failed in their basic VAT compliance issues. I would be very surprised if the filing of VAT returns (and latterly MTD) was not undertaken by 3rd party accountants based on figures provided by the company. Assuming that to be the case, and given the length of time that the company has been trading, it really is stretching one's imagination to believe that the validation tests the accountants would carry out (turnover reconciliations/cash controls etc) together with HMRC own algorithms would not have exposed serial under-declarations long before now. But maybe THJ is privy to something we don't know? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 11 hours ago, arnieg said: There's no 'may or may not' about it, they definitely don't. Presumably you are alleging they did not account for VAT on a material part of their income (maybe sponsorship or under declared gate receipts?) or simply failed in their basic VAT compliance issues. Think you will find I said the same in an earlier post; the point I was making is that the issue will be way over a couple of hundred programmes included as a VAT offset against the VAT due that goes on the gate entry money alone. Again I would suggest you are correct in your assumption that they "simply failed in their basic VAT compliance issues" or possibly wilfully ignored them. You have been on that side of the fence; can ignorance be used as a defence? 8 hours ago, Aceslider said: I would be very surprised if the filing of VAT returns (and latterly MTD) was not undertaken by 3rd party accountants based on figures provided by the company. Assuming that to be the case, and given the length of time that the company has been trading, it really is stretching one's imagination to believe that the validation tests the accountants would carry out (turnover reconciliations/cash controls etc) together with HMRC own algorithms would not have exposed serial under-declarations long before now. But maybe THJ is privy to something we don't know? THJ privy to something we don't know? not really... Having been in business some years now it is the business that is responsible for its VAT accounting and not the Accountant; or it is in the case where the turnover is at a manageable level. You enter your inputs and outputs onto the HMRC web site and you are told what your VAT liability is quarterly. Now unless you are a large company who can afford an FD or payroll department; or you are making the profits to out-source this function to say "an Accountant" you normally as a business do this function yourself. "Tax has changed" or at least that's what the tax man tells you on his web site and you want to see what changes they are proposing for the payment of VAT going forward especially in the game I am in where we as a company will be responsible for paying the VAT charged by sub contractors direct to the VAT man rather than to the Subbie for him to pay and it will be down to the Sub-Contactor to clam back any credits; off-sets or rebates... Its a pain in the neck but as the saying goes "in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes" which is a rather poignant quote for today as America votes for a new president. Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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