moxey63 Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 10 53 minutes ago, orion said: Fans don't want to watch individual meetings ran at club level .. Fans don't care if there riders double up or ride for another club ask any Swindon fan ..This year yet again has been another great year for nor use of guests. I think the El play offs had none and all teams tracked there 1 to 7 ..it's not what old and moaning fans want hear of course but that is how it is . If that's how you want your sport, like the wild west, then you are welcome to it. It is a joke sport now. There have been no guests, because it is being disguised as doubling up. When just seven teams chase a top-four place to be in the Play-Offs, you know how far it has shrunk. Just surprised it takes seven months of padding to tell us who can manipulate the rules the best. Perhaps moaning fans have had enough and are happy to leave the handful left to it. Edited October 20, 2019 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Just now, moxey63 said: If that's how you want your sport, like the wild west, then you are welcome to it. It is a joke sport now. When just seven teams chase a top-four place to be in the Play-Offs, you know how far it has shrunk. Perhaps moaning fans have had enough and are happy to leave the handful to it. I never said how I wanted the sport I was just telling you how it is ..nothing wild west or not a team sport about tracking the same 7 riders each meeting . As I said it's not what the old people who don't go anymore want to hear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 I remember riders saying they were over the moon to join Belle Vue. Not because of its proud history, that they can help it gain past glories... because Monday nights allowed them to do Poland on Sundays and, Tuesdays, race in Sweden. That's what I want to hear when I turn out to support these guys racing for my club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, orion said: I never said how I wanted the sport I was just telling you how it is ..nothing wild west or not a team sport about tracking the same 7 riders each meeting . As I said it's not what the old people who don't go anymore want to hear As I said, wild west rules and every man for himself sport. At the end of the season, we throw the names up in the air to next season's line-ups. I am an old moaning fan who recalls crowds twice as many as turned out at Swindon last week for the so-called Grand Finale, and back then it was for challenge matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, moxey63 said: As I said, wild west rules and every man for himself sport. At the end of the season, we throw the names up in the air to next season's line-ups. I am an old moaning fan who recalls crowds twice as many as turned out at Swindon last week for the so-called Grand Finale, and back then it was for challenge matches. life and sport is every man for himself ..you must be naïve to think otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, orion said: life and sport is every man for himself ..you must be naïve to think otherwise Everyman for himself, it is. Riders in the same team one night, in opposition sides the next. That, my friend, is why the sport is clinically dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Just now, moxey63 said: Everyman for himself, it is. Riders in the same team one night, in opposition sides the next. That, my friend, is why the sport is clinically dead. Not at all ..as I said ask any Swindon fan and they will you they don't care if they ride for another club in another league the next night .. just another myth that has zero credit . if you went you might understand . it's want you want it to be but it's not . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 41 minutes ago, orion said: Not at all ..as I said ask any Swindon fan and they will you they don't care if they ride for another club in another league the next night ..just another myth that has zero credit .if you went you might understand .it's want you want it to be but it's not . Of course, the remaining Swindon fans will think it's great. Try to find the ones who don't attend, who saw sense years ago. If you are happy with your lot, then I am pleased for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Chadster said: Individual meetings were popular in the one big league days because you only saw riders once a season. If, say Barry Briggs was injured when he was due to ride at your track your promoter could book him and more or less guarantee a crowd. Today, teams visit twice a season and some teams three times so the attraction of an individual meeting is much reduced. It was a rare occasion when Ole Olsen used to put in an appearance at Cowley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, moxey63 said: Of course, the remaining Swindon fans will think it's great. Try to find the ones who don't attend, who saw sense years ago. If you are happy with your lot, then I am pleased for you. Yet again I never said I was happy with my lot .. fans were leaving a long time before doubling up started .. give me some hard facts that fans are walking away just because riders double up .. I can find plenty of Swindon speedway who don't go anymore and I doubt if any were ever worry that say Ramus Jensen rides for Glasgow the next day . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Partnering a rider in one night, and then riding against him on another night in another domestic league, and then with him in another country the next night, and against him in yet another country the night after that, must have a huge bearing on the level of racing... You simply won't be as aggressive to win against someone who you will be sat next to in the pits somewhere else tomorrow.. I would defy anyone to 'give everything' for their teams given such situations.. Just human nature.. Therefore the level of competitiveness has to suffer... Unless, of course, it's Poland where individual contracts worth several hundred thousands pounds are on the line, and tens and tens of thousands of rabid fanatical fans are critically judging you every race... That focuses your mind and motivates you to give 100% every race I would suggest.. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 33 minutes ago, orion said: give me some hard facts that fans are walking away just because riders double up . Oh, we all stopped going to Plough Lane because Colin Richardson was riding for both Wimbledon and Eastbourne... The writing was clearly on the wall for Birmingham and Milton Keynes when Andy Grahame had the audacity to qualify for both the BLRC and NLRC in the same season. Moxey must have been disgusted to see PC appearing regularly for both Belle Vue AND Rochdale. How terrible... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 39 minutes ago, mikebv said: and tens and tens of thousands of rabid fanatical fans are critically judging you every race... Pish... That's bugger all compared to dealing with some of the rabid creatures here on the BSF... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaboy279 Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 18 hours ago, gustix said: Do you mean the difference between average 900 for individual meetings compared to 1,000 for a team match? I ll think you will find at many clubs individuals (apart from maybe one longstanding meeting) get crowds comparable to challenge matches, which can be as 50 percent lower gate. Even at Kent which supports the challenges etc pretty well must have at least a 20-25 percent dip for non team events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 8 hours ago, chunky said: Oh, we all stopped going to Plough Lane because Colin Richardson was riding for both Wimbledon and Eastbourne... The writing was clearly on the wall for Birmingham and Milton Keynes when Andy Grahame had the audacity to qualify for both the BLRC and NLRC in the same season. Moxey must have been disgusted to see PC appearing regularly for both Belle Vue AND Rochdale. How terrible... ...or Gordon Kennett, Malcolm Ballard, Mike Sampson, John Davis and a host of others during the Oxford/White City and Eastbourne'Peterborough tie up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 Perhaps all the happenings mentioned in previous Posts is because basically speedway is not a genuine team/club sport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 I think people are using their own examples to win an argument. Of course there were doubling up decades back - PC for Rochdale and Belle Vue, Richardson for Eastbourne and Wimbledon, Gordon Kennett, Malcolm Ballard. But, I'm using facts here, those riders were connected to the clubs they doubled-up with and went on to have long careers with them. You can't compare today's methods the same as back then. Now, I'm afraid, a team is cobbled together with as much thought as a football match in a PE lesson at school. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, orion said: Yet again I never said I was happy with my lot ..fans were leaving a long time before doubling up started ..give me some hard facts that fans are walking away just because riders double up .. I can find plenty of Swindon speedway who don't go anymore and I doubt if any were ever worry that say Ramus Jensen rides for Glasgow the next day . The band of people I used to go to speedway with have stopped attending because of the doubling-up rules, amongst other things. You don't treat your car in a slap-dosh way you would a company vehicle.Too many riders are not owned by the club and are passed around like a cig behind the bike sheds. Ask those "plenty" of ex-Swindon fans why they don't attend anymore. Once we get a handle on why, perhaps we can halt the decline. I know why the group I went with stopped attending. It was Doubling Up, Golden Doubles... all rules that make it a daft sport to put you heart into. Edited October 21, 2019 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 18 minutes ago, moxey63 said: I think people are using their own examples to win an argument. Of course there were doubling up decades back - PC for Rochdale and Belle Vue, Richardson for Eastbourne and Wimbledon, Gordon Kennett, Malcolm Ballard. But, I'm using facts here, those riders were connected to the clubs they doubled-up with and went on to have long careers with them. You can't compare today's methods the same as back then. Now, I'm afraid, a team is cobbled together with as much thought as a football match in a PE lesson at school. ...and it was a good system back then in my view. Certainly helped bring on British talent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 I think the main problem with doubling up was missing riders. Fixed race nights in the top league has sorted that, really. Now it's barely noticeable that Rasmus Jensen rides for Glasgow and Adam Ellis rides for, er, whoever he rides for. Riders doubling up has always been there, even if not to the degree it is now. It wasn't always young riders and connected teams. I remember Gordon Kennet doing it at Swindon towards the end of the year. In 1987, we had Andrew Silver at "number 8" who was better than half the Swindon team so rider absences often made us stronger. This isn't a new issue. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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