Midland Red Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, Lefty said: Lets just have one meeting a year, run over 20 heats and call it a World Final. Great idea - the winner being the World Champion Run a GP series as well, if you must, the winner being the GP Champion 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 6 hours ago, Lefty said: Lets just have one meeting a year, run over 20 heats and call it a World Final. A meeting that doesn't finish with a grand final? How absurd. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post fatface Posted October 21, 2019 Popular Post Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 It's good that GP organisers constantly look to tweak and improve the product. But I do think in terms of the scoring, this is an area that needs leaving well be. Through trial and error over several years, they have arrived at a format that provides an exciting climax to each GP, but is also fair and rewards consistency across the series. It's right the winner of the Grand Final, the winner of the hardest race of the night is crowned the night's winner, but it's also right that the night's most consistent performer goes away with the most points. I'm all for change, but not in this instance. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, falcace said: It's good that GP organisers constantly look to tweak and improve the product. But I do think in terms of the scoring, this is an area that needs leaving well be. Through trial and error over several years, they have arrived at a format that provides an exciting climax to each GP, but is also fair and rewards consistency across the series. It's right the winner of the Grand Final, the winner of the hardest race of the night is crowned the night's winner, but it's also right that the night's most consistent performer goes away with the most points. I'm all for change, but not in this instance. I agree, only two points in the Championship this year and it went to the semi final of the last GP before we knew thhe winner. Why change something that does not need changing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Mark said: Why change something that does not need changing. I can only think the idea is to bring speedway into line with some of the other major motorsports where the winner automatically receives the most points. The big difference being that F1, Motocross, MotoGP all have one race each or (if I am correct?) two races at Superbikes, as opposed to (up to) seven each at a Speedway GP. Thing is though, you cannot compare sports with sports, it's apples and pears. This systems works for speedway and whilst we should always be trying to make things as simple as possible for the casual viewer, I don't think this system is beyond the wit of even the most uniformed layperson. Edited October 21, 2019 by falcace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFCB Wildcat Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 8 hours ago, falcace said: I can only think the idea is to bring speedway into line with some of the other major motorsports where the winner automatically receives the most points. The big difference being that F1, Motocross, MotoGP all have one race each or (if I am correct?) two races at Superbikes, as opposed to (up to) seven each at a Speedway GP. Thing is though, you cannot compare sports with sports, it's apples and pears. This systems works for speedway and whilst we should always be trying to make things as simple as possible for the casual viewer, I don't think this system is beyond the wit of even the most uniformed layperson. I don't think that the problem is seen to be it being beyond the wit of the the layperson to understand the system, it's more getting them to buy into the credibility of seeing a rider crowned GP winner but only being 3rd or 4th in the score chart. I agree that comparing sports is apples & pears but snooker was mentioned as a sport where the winner has not necessarily scored the most points which is true but as someone else pointed out the points don't count towards deciding the the championship like in the GP's. Imagine player 1 winning 18 frames to 16 in the world championship final but then after totting up their scores over the 34 frames player 2 was declared winner because he scored more points. For me the current system is neither one thing or the other. If it's about totting points then just declare the winner after 20 heats. If its about a grand final to decide a winner then use the knockout system and award points for places. It's not been an issue this year really and I think there was only one GP this year where the winner of the final didn't top score or equal top score but I still think the format lacks a bit of credibility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) I would accept after 20 heats the rider with the most points being declared the GP winner. In the event of a tie the GP winner would be decided on who beat who when they met. However in the event of a 3 way tie I am stuck. Would be easy to sort if all three et in one race. After the 20 heats, there would be 2 semis and a final, just like now, for extra world championship points AND for viewer excitement. Edited October 22, 2019 by OveFundinFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) What I really don't get is that so many speedway are interested in just one thing - credibility. More than that, they try to use every possible situation and anomaly - however meaningless and insignificant - to shout to the just how flawed it is. When it isn't... Every sport and/or sporting event will throw up sone sort of anomaly. Nothing is perfect, but the thing these armchair critics forget (or more likely refuse to believe) is that the old world final system was far more flawed and less credible than the GP system we currently have. Guess what? Speedway is unique. Accept it and move on. Uniqueness and peculiarities litter every other sport too. How many football fans were complaining about Liverpool being the best in Europe last year - when they weren't even the best in England? Probably only those on the BSF... In a tennis match recently, one player lost despite having won several more games than his opponent. How appalling... In darts, a player can be crushed by an opponent without winning a leg, yet finish with a much higher average. Talk about a flawed system... In cricket, how disgusting that a team could be losing by a mountain of runs, yet they can still just play out for a draw. Talk about a lack of credibility... Edited October 22, 2019 by chunky 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFCB Wildcat Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 34 minutes ago, chunky said: What I really don't get is that so many speedway are interested in just one thing - credibility. More than that, they try to use every possible situation and anomaly - however meaningless and insignificant - to shout to the just how flawed it is. When it isn't... Every sport and/or sporting event will throw up sone sort of anomaly. Nothing is perfect, but the thing these armchair critics forget (or more likely refuse to believe) is that the old world final system was far more flawed and less credible than the GP system we currently have. Guess what? Speedway is unique. Accept it and move on. Uniqueness and peculiarities litter every other sport too. How many football fans were complaining about Liverpool being the best in Europe last year - when they weren't even the best in England? Probably only those on the BSF... In a tennis match recently, one player lost despite having won several more games than his opponent. How appalling... In darts, a player can be crushed by an opponent without winning a leg, yet finish with a much higher average. Talk about a flawed system... In cricket, how disgusting that a team could be losing by a mountain of runs, yet they can still just play out for a draw. Talk about a lack of credibility... But it's not armchair critics or the BSF in this case that are saying it's flawed is it? It's BSI hence the reason for the thread. The pros & cons of all the different formats have been discussed to death on different threads and like most topics we all have different opinions and agree to disagree. All I will say is that for all the examples you have stated of other sporting anomalies none have resulted in the person or team standing on the top step of the podium not being top of the official standings at the end of the event. You know more about darts than me but it's not about averages it's getting the shots out when under pressure and that's what makes a champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 3 hours ago, AFCB Wildcat said: You know more about darts than me but it's not about averages it's getting the shots out when under pressure and that's what makes a champion. And it's the GP rider who scores most points at the end of the year who is crowned World Champ. Pretty simple, eh? I am not 100% convinced about the way an individual GP winner is chosen, but the fact that it doesn't actually affect the overall standings is fine with me. It is not just BSI who are questioning it though. You yourself stated that it's "more getting them to buy into the credibility of seeing a rider crowned GP winner but only being 3rd or 4th in the scorechart". That was one of the reasons I said what I did, as you used the "c" word! Thing is, it's amazing how many organizing bodies and companies mess with stuff that seems to work. It just seems like they want to be "doing something" rather than sitting back and letting things work. I did voice my opinion a while back (somewhat in line with your "neither one thing or the other comment"), but it certainly wasn't a major issue for me. I don't really see the point of semis and a final which can lead to lopsided scoring, but most seem to prefer it it for excitement. However, I do feel that overall, it is the best system we have ever had when it comes to deciding a speedway world champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFCB Wildcat Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, chunky said: And it's the GP rider who scores most points at the end of the year who is crowned World Champ. Pretty simple, eh? I am not 100% convinced about the way an individual GP winner is chosen, but the fact that it doesn't actually affect the overall standings is fine with me. It is not just BSI who are questioning it though. You yourself stated that it's "more getting them to buy into the credibility of seeing a rider crowned GP winner but only being 3rd or 4th in the scorechart". That was one of the reasons I said what I did, as you used the "c" word! Thing is, it's amazing how many organizing bodies and companies mess with stuff that seems to work. It just seems like they want to be "doing something" rather than sitting back and letting things work. I did voice my opinion a while back (somewhat in line with your "neither one thing or the other comment"), but it certainly wasn't a major issue for me. I don't really see the point of semis and a final which can lead to lopsided scoring, but most seem to prefer it it for excitement. However, I do feel that overall, it is the best system we have ever had when it comes to deciding a speedway world champion. Absolutely, yes it's pretty simple, that's never been in dispute and as I've said I dont really have a problem with it either tbh. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the series in any way but I can see the flaw that BSI think might be hard to sell too hence my posts. The system the O.P says they are proposing certainly wouldn't be my preferred option anyway so yes, I'd rather they left it alone than did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 If anything is to be changed about the scoring system I would like the semi's and final to be scored 5,4,3,2 so there is a decent advantage to qualifying for either even if you finish last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Vince said: If anything is to be changed about the scoring system I would like the semi's and final to be scored 5,4,3,2 so there is a decent advantage to qualifying for either even if you finish last. Think that is a bit much for the semi’s at least. Someone might have the same points as another, but qualifies due to more heat wins or whatever. Then basically gets gifted 2 points for finishing last Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 55 minutes ago, iris123 said: Think that is a bit much for the semi’s at least. Someone might have the same points as another, but qualifies due to more heat wins or whatever. Then basically gets gifted 2 points for finishing last See your point but think there should be something awarded for making the semi. Maybe 4,3,2,1 for semi and 5,4,3,2 for the final 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 Also think there should be extra points on offer for reaching semi- final or final. Think a rider that reaches the final deserves something even if he finishes last.Generally the format is Ok .IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 What's the minimum number of points needed to qualify for the Semi-Finals? Probably something like 7, and then another 2 for reaching the Final, so that's 9. The maximum points a rider reaching the Final can score is 15 + 3, so 18. So award points in the Final - 1st = 30, 2nd = 20, 3rd = 10 and 4th = 0 - and add them to the heat and semi-final points. That way the top 3 will always score the most points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DutchGrasstrack Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Confirmed rule changes: Points per GP: 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0 GP 2021: - Top 6 GP 2020 - Top 3 GP challenge - European champion - 5 wildcards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, DutchGrasstrack said: Confirmed rule changes: Points per GP: 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0 GP 2021: - Top 6 GP 2020 - Top 3 GP challenge - European champion - 5 wildcards No 0 - everyone scores. It`s going to be interesting to see if more GP riders will now enter the SEC qualifying, in order to reach the SEC finals and get another chance of being back in the GP the following year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, DutchGrasstrack said: Confirmed rule changes: Points per GP: 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0 GP 2021: - Top 6 GP 2020 - Top 3 GP challenge - European champion - 5 wildcards I'm not a fan of this if it is true. As I said earlier, a rider may score 15 points in the Qualifying heats and finish third in his S/F for an actual total of 16 points, loses 4 points in the new format, being 'awarded' 12 points. Another rider may qualify for the S/F with 8 points and finish second in his S/F actually scoring 10 points but gains 4 points after being 'awarded' 14 for finishing last in the Final! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Just now, Gambo said: I'm not a fan of this if it is true. As I said earlier, a rider may score 15 points in the Qualifying heats and finish third in his S/F for an actual total of 16 points, loses 4 points in the new format, being 'awarded' 12 points. Another rider may qualify for the S/F with 8 points and finish second in his S/F actually scoring 10 points but gains 4 points after being 'awarded' 14 for finishing last in the Final! It`s true on GP website exactly as DGT has said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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