mikebv Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 Some say guests are a 'necessary evil'... They are not, it's simply become the 'easy, lazy way out' rather than try and not use them.. A fit for purpose rider replacement facility would eradicate many of the needs for guests, as would a fixture list that doesn't plan meetings in whereby you already know you need them to complete either, or both, teams.. Doubling up/down is though a 'necessary evil'.... There are simply not enough riders to go round and, if no doubling up/down, not enough meetings for riders to make enough money to justify their outlay to ride... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 hour ago, mikebv said: Some say guests are a 'necessary evil'... They are not, it's simply become the 'easy, lazy way out' rather than try and not use them.. A fit for purpose rider replacement facility would eradicate many of the needs for guests, as would a fixture list that doesn't plan meetings in whereby you already know you need them to complete either, or both, teams.. Doubling up/down is though a 'necessary evil'.... There are simply not enough riders to go round and, if no doubling up/down, not enough meetings for riders to make enough money to justify their outlay to ride... The thing is, many many fans keep saying about getting rid of guests but can never come up with a viable alternative themselves. So, that means there's nothing wrong with the guest system due to the make up of our sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 hour ago, mikebv said: Some say guests are a 'necessary evil'... They are not, it's simply become the 'easy, lazy way out' rather than try and not use them.. A fit for purpose rider replacement facility would eradicate many of the needs for guests, as would a fixture list that doesn't plan meetings in whereby you already know you need them to complete either, or both, teams.. Doubling up/down is though a 'necessary evil'.... There are simply not enough riders to go round and, if no doubling up/down, not enough meetings for riders to make enough money to justify their outlay to ride... I quite agree - guests should be an absolute last choice if there is numerous riders out injured within a team. They should never be able to be a first port of call. Rider replacement should always cover a missing rider in the 1-5 in my opinion. Especially now with the new ‘rising star scheme’, teams should be replacing reserves in the top tier with riders who don’t have a top tier side and can only use riders within the scheme from the second tier or riders without a team. Likewise in the second tier, they should be using riders who aren’t assigned to a team within the top two tiers. That way it gives riders who aren’t currently in a side to effectively form “a youth pool” and get a chance to showcase themselves and earn a team spot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Daniel Smith said: The thing is, many many fans keep saying about getting rid of guests but can never come up with a viable alternative themselves. So, that means there's nothing wrong with the guest system due to the make up of our sport. See my above post - ideally we would run squads like in Poland and then eliminating any need for guest riders. However, we are struggling to fill 7 rider teams let alone 10 or more so that isn’t an option. Rider replacement should be the first option for a missing rider and then rider replacement and a guest for when 2 riders are missing. Reserves should be replaced with other rising star scheme riders as I’ve explained in the previous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, Najjer said: See my above post - ideally we would run squads like in Poland and then eliminating any need for guest riders. However, we are struggling to fill 7 rider teams let alone 10 or more so that isn’t an option. Rider replacement should be the first option for a missing rider and then rider replacement and a guest for when 2 riders are missing. Reserves should be replaced with other rising star scheme riders as I’ve explained in the previous post. So still no viable alternative other than guests then? Even if you use 'rising stars' he could still appear for Ipswich on Monday & against them on Thursday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris116 Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 The current set up means that PL teams have 10 home and 10 away meetings while CL teams have 11 home and 11 away meetings if they run home and away twice in the PL with just home and away once in the CL. So a rider who is racing in both leagues gets 42 meetings assuming they race at every meeting for both their teams plus any playoffs. If all 18 teams were in one big league this would give 34 meetings with home and away once. If the big league was split into three areas (North/Midlands/South) then they could race their local teams a second time, Home and away which gives another 10 meetings which increases the number of meetings for riders to 44 with each track having 22 home meetings plus any playoffs. The problem is the number of riders that are needed to fill the teams which would probably mean six man teams at best and in the short term even five man teams. This however could encourage riders to ride in this country as they would get 5 or 6 races at every meeting with the chance to earn more at each meeting plus a couple of extra meetings over the season. For spectators it would mean more home meetings with more local derbies and more teams to watch over the season if they only go to their home track. If every team had to have at one under 21 British rider and one under 25 British rider with no other rules on who they were it would give the top NDL riders a chance to progress. As an extra incentive to promotions to run NDL teams a rule that for team building purposes any rider moving into the top league from the same tracks NDL team would be assessed at 2 while those from other NDL teams would be assessed 3. Also any rider racing for the same team in two years would be given a 5% reduction for team building. This would encourage teams to keep teams together which means that fans don't see all their favourites vanish off to other teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 34 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: So still no viable alternative other than guests then? Even if you use 'rising stars' he could still appear for Ipswich on Monday & against them on Thursday. As per my previous post, until there is enough riders and money to run squads, then no there isn’t an alternative - however, that doesn’t stop the current situation being improved and guests from other teams being limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Daniel Smith said: So still no viable alternative other than guests then? Even if you use 'rising stars' he could still appear for Ipswich on Monday & against them on Thursday. I read Najjer’s post as using other rising star scheme riders who are on the list but don’t ride for another team in that league. Agree also it should be R/R unless two riders are absent. We HAVE to get rid of riders appearing for more than one team as much as is possible. Edited February 14, 2021 by Bagpuss 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrub Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 25 minutes ago, Bagpuss said: I read Najjer’s post as n m saving other rising star scheme riders who are on the list but don’t ride for another team in that league. Agree also it should be R/R unless two riders are absent. We HAVE to get rid of riders appearing for more than one team as much as is possible. As has been said before on here John Berry proved over many years you can operate without guests - and still be highly successful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Daniel Smith said: So still no viable alternative other than guests then? Even if you use 'rising stars' he could still appear for Ipswich on Monday & against them on Thursday. No1 missing? Then 2nd and 3rd Heat Leaders can take all his rides if the Manager wants to do so.. No2 Missing? No1 takes one ride and the rest take as many rides as the manager wants.... No3 rider missing then No2 and No4 can take two each (again if the manager wants to do that).. The same applies to No4, No5 and No6, ie if the manager wants to, then the riders directly above and below can take two each.. If a No7 missing then the No6 can take three rides and a No8 takes one.. All riders can have a maximum seven rides.. If more than one rider is missing for any team then simply dont run the meeting until they have at least six each. If another injury happens during a meeting where RR is used then some other regs can be implemented, however, injuries do happen during sports events, sometimes meaning that teams are 'unlucky'... That's Sport.. Thw capability gap from the rider at No1 to the rider at No5 in the averages in particular, will never have been so close as it is nowadays so a perfect opportunity to do something different.. Edited February 14, 2021 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ndbendbeerhut Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 48 minutes ago, Bagpuss said: Agree also it should be R/R unless two riders are absent. We HAVE to get rid of riders appearing for more than one team as much as is possible. if a rider is missing then RR is the 1st option (unless its your no1) then if 2 riders are missing its 1 guest and RR. As for guests why not restrict them in the PL to only riders who do not ride in that league? If Ipswich needed a guest then they could look at someone in the CL (eg Eastbourne) but couldnt use Kerr or Brennan, but Kennett, Lawson Edwards and Newman would be ok. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Shrub said: As has been said before on here John Berry proved over many years you can operate without guests - and still be highly successful. The national league in the late 80s also proved that you could run a league competition without guests. The issue like so many within speedway it's the easy way out. Just look how far the sport has fallen since Ipswich's final national league season in 1990. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon1983 Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 2 hours ago, mikebv said: No1 missing? Then 2nd and 3rd Heat Leaders can take all his rides if the Manager wants to do so.. No2 Missing? No1 takes one ride and the rest take as many rides as the manager wants.... No3 rider missing then No2 and No4 can take two each (again if the manager wants to do that).. The same applies to No4, No5 and No6, ie if the manager wants to, then the riders directly above and below can take two each.. If a No7 missing then the No6 can take three rides and a No8 takes one.. All riders can have a maximum seven rides.. If more than one rider is missing for any team then simply dont run the meeting until they have at least six each. If another injury happens during a meeting where RR is used then some other regs can be implemented, however, injuries do happen during sports events, sometimes meaning that teams are 'unlucky'... That's Sport.. Thw capability gap from the rider at No1 to the rider at No5 in the averages in particular, will never have been so close as it is nowadays so a perfect opportunity to do something different.. I like something like this However it is open to manipulation as you cant trust the promoters who regulate their own sport would only work with a separate governing body running the sport If your no.1 doesnt ride Foxhall well he can just pull out with a mystery illness and then your next two heat leaders who might ride Foxhall well get 7 rides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldyman Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 That's okay,,, is normally Ipswich number 1s that can't ride Foxhall very well 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 2 hours ago, mikebv said: No1 missing? Then 2nd and 3rd Heat Leaders can take all his rides if the Manager wants to do so.. No2 Missing? No1 takes one ride and the rest take as many rides as the manager wants.... No3 rider missing then No2 and No4 can take two each (again if the manager wants to do that).. The same applies to No4, No5 and No6, ie if the manager wants to, then the riders directly above and below can take two each.. If a No7 missing then the No6 can take three rides and a No8 takes one.. All riders can have a maximum seven rides.. If more than one rider is missing for any team then simply dont run the meeting until they have at least six each. If another injury happens during a meeting where RR is used then some other regs can be implemented, however, injuries do happen during sports events, sometimes meaning that teams are 'unlucky'... That's Sport.. Thw capability gap from the rider at No1 to the rider at No5 in the averages in particular, will never have been so close as it is nowadays so a perfect opportunity to do something different.. 2 hours ago, 2ndbendbeerhut said: if a rider is missing then RR is the 1st option (unless its your no1) then if 2 riders are missing its 1 guest and RR. As for guests why not restrict them in the PL to only riders who do not ride in that league? If Ipswich needed a guest then they could look at someone in the CL (eg Eastbourne) but couldnt use Kerr or Brennan, but Kennett, Lawson Edwards and Newman would be ok. Both really good suggestions. The idea about restricting guests to only riders outside of the Premiership is even better! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 21 hours ago, mikebv said: No1 missing? Then 2nd and 3rd Heat Leaders can take all his rides if the Manager wants to do so.. No2 Missing? No1 takes one ride and the rest take as many rides as the manager wants.... No3 rider missing then No2 and No4 can take two each (again if the manager wants to do that).. The same applies to No4, No5 and No6, ie if the manager wants to, then the riders directly above and below can take two each.. If a No7 missing then the No6 can take three rides and a No8 takes one.. All riders can have a maximum seven rides.. If more than one rider is missing for any team then simply dont run the meeting until they have at least six each. If another injury happens during a meeting where RR is used then some other regs can be implemented, however, injuries do happen during sports events, sometimes meaning that teams are 'unlucky'... That's Sport.. Thw capability gap from the rider at No1 to the rider at No5 in the averages in particular, will never have been so close as it is nowadays so a perfect opportunity to do something different.. Pretty similar to what they did in about 1977 or 1978, but it was only done for one season. It came up with some big scores, with riders like Finn Thomsen and Henny Kroeze getting 21 points, but it was certainly better option than guests. I think they did it that the rider above the missing rider in the averages can have one R/R ride, and everyone else can have up to 3 R/r rides. THen, I think, you were allowed a guest if you had 2 riders missing. When Swindon won the league in 1967 they lost Barry Briggs for about a month following a crash in Germany and had to use their number 8 in his place. They still came top despite that. There is too much of an obsession with equality thee days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 4 minutes ago, Grachan said: Pretty similar to what they did in about 1977 or 1978, but it was only done for one season. It came up with some big scores, with riders like Finn Thomsen and Henny Kroeze getting 21 points, but it was certainly better option than guests. I think they did it that the rider above the missing rider in the averages can have one R/R ride, and everyone else can have up to 3 R/r rides. THen, I think, you were allowed a guest if you had 2 riders missing. When Swindon won the league in 1967 they lost Barry Briggs for about a month following a crash in Germany and had to use their number 8 in his place. They still came top despite that. There is too much of an obsession with equality thee days. I think there is probably a huge difference between Swindon’s win in 67 and today’s league structure. Swindon were probably well secure when they won the league when teams topping the table won. Nowadays losing a heat leader for the play offs severely weakens you. just the way things have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, stevebrum said: I think there is probably a huge difference between Swindon’s win in 67 and today’s league structure. Swindon were probably well secure when they won the league when teams topping the table won. Nowadays losing a heat leader for the play offs severely weakens you. just the way things have changed. Alternatively, you only need to finish in the top four so could possibly afford to have a number one missing for a couple of meetings during the season - particularly in a 6 team league. Swings and roundabouts, I guess. It depends when you lose a rider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin king Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 Anyone find it a bit strange that Ipswich have named their top 6, but not their Rising Star rider. I would have thought that the choice was pretty straightforward with it been Drew Kemp. Or perhaps there has been a change of heart and they will go with a different rider. Could Ipswich be looking to tempt Josh Bates or could they be considering offering Tom Brennan to East Anglia. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 17 minutes ago, Grachan said: Alternatively, you only need to finish in the top four so could possibly afford to have a number one missing for a couple of meetings during the season - particularly in a 6 team league. Swings and roundabouts, I guess. It depends when you lose a rider. True, I’m thinking more in the instance where the best team leading up to the play offs lose one of their star men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.