Jaizer Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 14 minutes ago, mikebv said: Surely there has to come a time when Promoters take a step back, put their own egos away, and realise that what they are doing simply doesnt work? Its clear that "Championship Lite/NDL Plus" is the (maximum) level for so many.. Not "Premiership Lite".. If your crowd is less than 1000 why would you be paying Premiership Heat Leaders? Premiership Heat Leaders dont forget whose very presence has delivered that less than 1000 crowd!! The sport is now down to the die hards, with the vast majority of whom willing to watch anything served up and packaged as "Team Speedway" (as is proved by their regular attendance even after well over a decade of contrived output), therefore why spend hundreds of thousands in delivering it?. For me, the sport (all sports), need a standard bearer to aspire to, so maybe you could get 8 teams to be the pinnacle with 5 man teams. Meaning the best 40 riders ride in that league.. The rest then race in an 11 team "Championship Lite/NDL Plus" level, with the best riders providing injury cover to the top league by being affiliated to the teams there.. Meaning no guests in the top league!! Grade the top 40 riders, A to E and set a mean average based on their total points divided by 40. This will then ensure no team with money can get the best rider from every grade.. Put simply, your crowd level should deliver the level you race at, not the ego of the Promoter.. But the premiership heat leaders aren't really premiership heat leaders. Guys like Lawson, masters, Ellis would be 5/6 point riders maybe if was to standard of 20 years ago. James Grieves a consistent 9 point average second division rider barely got above 4 in his Wolverhampton days. The premiership is just a slightly harder championship as apposed to the old days when it was a huge jump. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 7 minutes ago, Jaizer said: But the premiership heat leaders aren't really premiership heat leaders. Guys like Lawson, masters, Ellis would be 5/6 point riders maybe if was to standard of 20 years ago. James Grieves a consistent 9 point average second division rider barely got above 4 in his Wolverhampton days. The premiership is just a slightly harder championship as apposed to the old days when it was a huge jump. Agree 100%.. But I bet their remuneration package doesnt reflect their level against riders 20 years ago.. It will only reflect their position now against all those below them.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 1 minute ago, mikebv said: Agree 100%.. But I bet their remuneration package doesnt reflect their level against riders 20 years ago.. It will only reflect their position now against all those below them.. No doubt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TotallyHonestJohn Posted August 26, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, mikebv said: Grade the top 40 riders, A to E and set a mean average based on their total points divided by 40. This will then ensure no team with money can get the best rider from every grade.. Mike Mike Mike Grading was proposed for the 6 man team format 5 year back where each team could have 1 grade A rider or 2 grade B riders amongst other permutations but that wasn't acceptable because two promotions had two riders each in the Band A group and weren't prepared to share because they wanted to put out the absolute strongest team they could in the hope of trying to win something regardless if they are humping weaker opposition each week... Speedway isn't Football however promoters have that football mentality but if a club is getting all the best riders and the opposition can't get anyone to put up a reasonable opposition for competitive racing then regardless fans get fed up. Now this is all well and good when there is a requirement for say 140 riders and the pool of talent available is say 540 riders however when the pool only consists of 100 riders the whole premise falls apart... Not wanting to pick on any clubs but there are teams with 3 recognised riders who could and should be filling a No 1 slot in most Championship teams yet this race to the bottom to spend as much as possible to get the absolute strongest 1 to 7 possible is an exercise in bancrupcy and it's ridiculous... I am not a big fan of American Sport however even those massive franchise's see the need for competitive meetings and contests and undertake a draft pick giving the weakest teams first pick of the best up an coming talent and unless Speedway adopts something similar on team selection promoters will always be in the rat race to the bottom... Even football have tried to achieve some sort parity across clubs with the financial fair play league... although it doesnt seem to work that well but thats football where clubs get 50,000 crowds and this is speedway where promoters get a hard on when they get a crowd over a 1000... Home fans generally don't come when they see sides that they percieve as having no chance from the start of the season and sides with three big hitters a reserve who should be a second string and two second strings rolling up who are knocking on the door of becoming a third heat leader it's a joke... Oh everyone builds to 40 points (or so) and it should balance out but we all know the reasons why it doesn't... Riders getting a ridiculous guarentee that clubs can't afford with promotions losing money hand over fist year after year and the lesson is never learned... The whole thing is corrupt from top to bottom and the big idea they will be working on this year and next to save speedway is rolling out the second rising star reserve which we all know the reasons why this is a good idea however it is just another fiddle and something that clubs try to manipulate... and why does this process need to come with 15 pages of rules ffs? I'm not often a supporter of old Len Silver but I am with him 100% when he says why do we need to have so many complicated rules in a sport that is basically 4 guys racing round a track for 4 laps and a minutes entertainment... Someone recently mentioned a circus of a show at a track well if they need some clowns I'm sure the BSPL have pleanty to go round if they are looking for any more... Here's a thing I'm with the IOW and how about a breakaway league... tell the mafia who are running the sport at present to poke it... Having been through this with Workington all Eastie fans have my heartfelt condolences at their loss... let's hope unlike Workington Eastie can make a come back and this is only a temporary blip... Regards THJ Edited August 26, 2021 by TotallyHonestJohn Spelling 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 3 hours ago, Jaizer said: Isle of Wight Somerset Trelawny Long Eaton & Bradford 3 years before that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 Been thinking about the Eastbourne closure... why was it different to what's happened at Birmingham & Newcastle? Both of those were given opportunities to continue, fixtures rearranged to bring forward attractive opposition and go fund me pages setup. Eastboune, fixtures cancelled, press blackout and then closure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky_Mark Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 1 minute ago, iainb said: Been thinking about the Eastbourne closure... why was it different to what's happened at Birmingham & Newcastle? Both of those were given opportunities to continue, fixtures rearranged to bring forward attractive opposition and go fund me pages setup. Eastboune, fixtures cancelled, press blackout and then closure! Yes I’m surprised there wasn’t a call to arms, for example a crowdfunding type page set up for donations to try and get the team to the end of the season. Unless the debts were so high that they knew that wouldn’t scratch the surface, I mean after all we’re now hearing that the riders are owed SEVERAL meetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffdiamond Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Jaizer said: But the premiership heat leaders aren't really premiership heat leaders. Guys like Lawson, masters, Ellis would be 5/6 point riders maybe if was to standard of 20 years ago. James Grieves a consistent 9 point average second division rider barely got above 4 in his Wolverhampton days. The premiership is just a slightly harder championship as apposed to the old days when it was a huge jump. Yeah, but its the taking part that's counts,,, equality and diversity,(not the pop group), is the way now,,, so it doesn't matter if the jobs crap, it happens all the time so don't worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 8 minutes ago, iainb said: Been thinking about the Eastbourne closure... why was it different to what's happened at Birmingham & Newcastle? Both of those were given opportunities to continue, fixtures rearranged to bring forward attractive opposition and go fund me pages setup. Eastboune, fixtures cancelled, press blackout and then closure! We don’t know the facts though,perhaps the Stadium owners wanted what they were owed (if anything) before they were allowed to use the Stadium .We will never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky_Mark Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 1 minute ago, Marky_Mark said: Yes I’m surprised there wasn’t a call to arms, for example a crowdfunding type page set up for donations to try and get the team to the end of the season. Unless the debts were so high that they knew that wouldn’t scratch the surface, I mean after all we’re now hearing that the riders are owed SEVERAL meetings. In fact the more I think about it, I would have several questions of the Eastbourne management team if they were prepared to answer; - Why was the break even figure set at such a high attendance coming out of lockdown, what outgoings were so high, overpaying riders, staff or unaffordable rent? - Why were fans not informed sooner that there were problems, speedway fans are a big community and don’t like to see any track close. It could have led to donations, offers of support and larger attendances? - Why did they enter and then continue with a National league side, as sad as it would have been to see them pull out, it may have been a sacrifice worth making to save one of the teams. - Why were the 2 owners/directors not licensed promoters and therefore having to employ 2 promoters. I could be wrong but does this somehow imply that the BSPL already had concerns and didn’t want to give them a promoters license? - They state that the company will continue to trade for 5-6 weeks and pay off everything they owe, does that include all outstanding rent and riders pay? - Why did they start a crowdfunding page for an air fence for next season knowing that they had financial problems and therefore were unlikely to even get to next season? Surely would have been more valuable to ask for funding to get through the problems first? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 1 minute ago, Marky_Mark said: Yes I’m surprised there wasn’t a call to arms, for example a crowdfunding type page set up for donations to try and get the team to the end of the season. Unless the debts were so high that they knew that wouldn’t scratch the surface, I mean after all we’re now hearing that the riders are owed SEVERAL meetings. I'm wondering if Birmingham and Newcastle were given a bail out by the BSPL, Eastbourne asked but the pot was empty?? Or maybe because Eastbourne has a much more attractive 'asset' base than those two. Couldn't they just sell Tom Brennan to the mega rich to raise some cash.... ...or do they just now 'own' him by default. This won't be popular but I have to say weren't Eastbourne one of the teams that insisted on retaining their 2020 line up in 2021 even though there was no precedent or legal requirement to do so. When it was obvious that was going to mean there wasn;t going to be enough riders to make all of the teams competitive. A team they then appear to have been unable to afford. Madness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 1 hour ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Mike Mike Mike Grading was proposed for the 6 man team format 5 year back where each team could have 1 grade A rider or 2 grade B riders amongst other permutations but that wasn't acceptable because two promotions had two riders each in the Band A group and weren't prepared to share because they wanted to put out the absolute strongest team they could in the hope of trying to win something regardless if they are humping weaker opposition each week... Speedway isn't Football however promoters have that football mentality but if a club is getting all the best riders and the opposition can't get anyone to put up a reasonable opposition for competitive racing then regardless fans get fed up. Now this is all well and good when there is a requirement for say 140 riders and the pool of talent available is say 540 riders however when the pool only consists of 100 riders the whole premise falls apart... Not wanting to pick on any clubs but there are teams with 3 recognised riders who could and should be filling a No 1 slot in most Championship teams yet this race to the bottom to spend as much as possible to get the absolute strongest 1 to 7 possible is an exercise in bancrupcy and it's ridiculous... I am not a big fan of American Sport however even those massive franchise's see the need for competitive meetings and contests and undertake a draft pick giving the weakest teams first pick of the best up an coming talent and unless Speedway adopts something similar on team selection promoters will always be in the rat race to the bottom... Even football have tried to achieve some sort parity across clubs with the financial fair play league... although it doesnt seem to work that well but thats football where clubs get 50,000 crowds and this is speedway where promoters get a hard on when they get a crowd over a 1000... Home fans generally don't come when they see sides that they percieve as having no chance from the start of the season and sides with three big hitters a reserve who should be a second string and two second strings rolling up who are knocking on the door of becoming a third heat leader it's a joke... Oh everyone builds to 40 points (or so) and it should balance out but we all know the reasons why it doesn't... Riders getting a ridiculous guarentee that clubs can't afford with promotions losing money hand over fist year after year and the lesson is never learned... The whole thing is corrupt from top to bottom and the big idea they will be working on this year and next to save speedway is rolling out the second rising star reserve which we all know the reasons why this is a good idea however it is just another fiddle and something that clubs try to manipulate... and why does this process need to come with 15 pages of rules ffs? I'm not often a supporter of old Len Silver but I am with him 100% when he says why do we need to have so many complicated rules in a sport that is basically 4 guys racing round a track for 4 laps and a minutes entertainment... Someone recently mentioned a circus of a show at a track well if they need some clowns I'm sure the BSPL have pleanty to go round if they are looking for any more... Here's a thing I'm with the IOW and how about a breakaway league... tell the mafia who are running the sport at present to poke it... Having been through this with Workington all Eastie fans have my heartfelt condolences at their loss... let's hope unlike Workington Eastie can make a come back and this is only a temporary blip... Regards THJ And all to try and win competitions rendered pretty much meaningless by their very own operational model and their actions... The saying often used for this kind of ludicrous situation is... "You really couldn't make this s**t up could you?'... Well, unfortunately for British Speedway, someone actually must have... And, incredibly, others then agreed with them.... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woofers Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 As I mentioned earlier, I’m not sure Eastbourne were the most popular promotion at the BSPL, and probably haven’t received a Christmas Card from them for some years. Ian Jordan has on more than one occasion mentioned his gratitude to Glasgow for single handedly siding with them on the 2021 team building / points issues, so that probably put their noses out of joint to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 (edited) 58 minutes ago, enotian said: I'm wondering if Birmingham and Newcastle were given a bail out by the BSPL, Eastbourne asked but the pot was empty?? Or maybe because Eastbourne has a much more attractive 'asset' base than those two. Couldn't they just sell Tom Brennan to the mega rich to raise some cash.... ...or do they just now 'own' him by default. This won't be popular but I have to say weren't Eastbourne one of the teams that insisted on retaining their 2020 line up in 2021 even though there was no precedent or legal requirement to do so. When it was obvious that was going to mean there wasn;t going to be enough riders to make all of the teams competitive. A team they then appear to have been unable to afford. Madness. No need to wonder neither Brum nor Newcastle were offered a bail out they were left to get on with it... sink or swim... Eastie unfortunately sank... and this won't be believed but I think Eastie have protected their asset base but more may come out later on that one.. and how much do you think Brennan is worth... 10 20 30k and are you are assuming that the debts are less than these figures and who in the current environment could afford to buy him... and you are again assuming that the guys promoting the spot own the assets? Have they not just covered the bond paid the bills and run it as a franchise so to speak... There is more to this debacle IMHO than meets the eye... but I doubt any of us mere plebs will find out the true picture... That's why I feel there is still some hope for Eastie to rise like a Phoenix next year... Regards THJ Edited August 26, 2021 by TotallyHonestJohn Missed out word 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 1 hour ago, iainb said: Been thinking about the Eastbourne closure... why was it different to what's happened at Birmingham & Newcastle? Both of those were given opportunities to continue, fixtures rearranged to bring forward attractive opposition and go fund me pages setup. Eastboune, fixtures cancelled, press blackout and then closure! This was rumbling on longer than the two you quote and both Brum and Newcastle had to give the BSPL certain guarentee's with checks and balances put in place for them to follow and the issues were only temporary to a certain degree and brought on by Covid Covid rules and demanding councils and landlords outwith their controls. Eastie on the other hand I would suggest played down their problems until the issue became so massive all they could do is blow thier brains out... if the BSPL had jumped on them from the start it may not have come to this... nievity all round... If they had cut two of the three big earners out of their team who were on guaranteed wages and put two riders in on realistic points money again they might not have been in this predicament... yes Eastie had a very competitive team but it has ultimately cost them... big time... Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackett Posted August 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 People in the know will be able to answer this better than I BUT recall Len Silver being interviewed at Arlington earlier this year and stated that riders are no longer assets plus teams don't have the finances to purchase riders like they previously did. So if you are Eastbourne and Brennan is your asset , it is no longer possible to sell him to Belle Vue or Ipswich Witches for example. In terms of Eastbourne wanting the same team as the cancelled team - I still think that was an honourable thing to do although if giving riders guarantees and Premiership wage levels is true that was never going to work. In terms of presentation it is difficult the facilities at most tracks are no better than 2nd tier non league football grounds. PA systems are dire. Currently I would work it around that no meeting should run longer than 90 minutes - if no crashes or stoppages. Break it into 4-4-4-3 heat quarters and riders ready for the next race immediately + put on 2 mins as soon as riders leave the track so that the racing is nigh on continual for the 4xheat quarters. If a tapes infringement etc straight round to the start none of this sitting at the pit gate and refuelling, having a chat and taking time for a couple of selfies - 2 mins should already be on so the racing should flow quickly. Track grading can take place between the quarters. It could mean on some occasions the main meeting is done and dusted in just over an hour - then so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 4 hours ago, mikebv said: Was never going to happen.. The council were not going to close down a multi million pound tax payer funded facility that they had just opened.. Dont matter how much they pay for it if no one is willing to promote it plus is can be used for other events ... The bottom line Morton and Gordon nearly ended Belle Vue speedway and left with a black mark against there name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr Pyszny Posted August 27, 2021 Report Share Posted August 27, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Hackett said: In terms of presentation it is difficult the facilities at most tracks are no better than 2nd tier non league football grounds. You're being extremely generous, comparing favourably speedway's existing venues to second tier non-league football grounds. Are you suggesting (possibly the new, new Belle Vue apart) speedway offers facilities on a par with, say, AFC Fylde, Boston United, Curzon Ashton, Dartford, Hereford United, Kidderminster Harriers, Maidstone United or York City? Many speedway stadia - even the tidier, smarter ones - wouldn't look out of place in non-league football's third or fourth tiers! Edited August 27, 2021 by Piotr Pyszny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted August 27, 2021 Report Share Posted August 27, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Here's a thing I'm with the IOW and how about a breakaway league... tell the mafia who are running the sport at present to poke it... Having been through this with Workington all Eastie fans have my heartfelt condolences at their loss... let's hope unlike Workington Eastie can make a come back and this is only a temporary blip... Regards THJ Given the huge success of Isle of Wight Speedway (even allowing for exceptional circumstances) you might not be the only one with that view. From what I am hearing, the circumstances of the closure of Eastbourne are very different to that of Workington. 11 hours ago, screm said: Eastbourne can now be added to the list of teams we have lost since the turn of the Century, just over twenty years ago. How many teams will come to the tapes for 2022 Coventry Hull Oxford Newport Swindon Lakeside Exeter Stoke Workington Reading Rye House St Austell Buxton I think there are grounds for optimism where Eastbourne is concerned and that this closure may well only be temporary. The stadium, I am assured, is going nowhere (unlike about half of the above) with stock cars and bangers still pulling in nigh on capacity attendances. In addition, the joint owners of Arlington are Eric and Margaret Dugard (the late Bob's brother and wife) and the family have a strong history of supporting, running and even competing in speedway. Edited August 27, 2021 by Halifaxtiger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marko Posted August 27, 2021 Report Share Posted August 27, 2021 Will affect Kent Kings too, they have lost Lakeside, Rye House and now Eastbourne, all clubs within reasonable travelling distance for away fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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