British world champions ratings list

[iris123]

1 hour ago, norbold said:

The moral is you don't need to be a bookshop near a track to sell books about speedway!

No, but I think you would agree, if you ain’t stocking the book, you ain’t going to sell it. This is part of a longer conversation. Of course there is an alternative. Someone can order the book from the shop. That might, just might wake their interest in a niche market. But if you just go in ask if a book is in stock and then go, that in all probability is the end of the story for the bookshop. Now if that sort of thing happened quite often it might be another story ....As I said in a previous answer, Foyles in the center of London had a few speedway books a few years back, at a time when there were no longer any London tracks, so I have noticed the phenomenon you point out, and posted about it just this week

Edited September 29, 2019 by iris123

[norbold]

5 minutes ago, iris123 said:

No, but I think you would agree, if you ain’t stocking the book, you ain’t going to sell it. This is part of a longer conversation. Of course there is an alternative. Someone can order the book from the shop. That might, just might wake their interest in a niche market. But if you just go in ask if a book is in stock and then go, that in all probability is the end of the story for the bookshop. Now if that sort of thing happened quite often it might be another story ....As I said in a previous answer, Foyles in the center of London had a few speedway books a few years back, at a time when there were no longer any London tracks, so I have noticed the phenomenon you point out, and posted about it just this week

Yes. I also think there is a difference between the sort of history books I wrote and a book by Tai Woffinden. Because a lot of people "used to go" to speedway and that's why my East Anglia book sold so well in Norwich and my London book in London as people there could wallow in a bit of nostalgia and read about their heroes and relive their younger days when they "used to go" to speedway. I guess to most people, even former speedway supporters, a book about Tai Woffinden would actually mean very little.

[iris123]

And a couple of your books were among those Foyles had on the shelves. I am not sure if Sportspages still exists, but I would imagine they might also have a speedway book or two on the shelves. But a random WH Smith’s in SE London is more likely to stock a boxing or F1 book or 2 than a speedway book I would suspect 

Edited September 29, 2019 by iris123

[norbold]

1 minute ago, iris123 said:

And a couple of your books were among those Foyles had on the shelves. I am not sure if Sportspages still exists, but I would imagine they might also have a speedway book or two on the shelves. But a random WH Smith’s in SE London is more likely to stock a boxing or F1 book or 2 than a speedway book I would suspect 

Sportspages no longer exists but it was where most of my London books sold when it came out. Mark Loram went in there one day not long after it was published and signed a number of copies quite unbeknown to me!

[Sidney the robin]

21 hours ago, steve roberts said:

From the riders I have seen from that list my list would be:

1. Collins 2. Lee 3. Loram. 4. Havelock...of those that I didn't see the one rider I wish I had was Peter Craven. Anybody who could circumnavigate Cowley at 63 secs when the average time during that period was 67 secs had to be someone special.

I would have Lee in front of Collins Steve, Peter would of won it in 77 without injury but i believe Lee should of won it in 79/83.

 

 

 

 

 

[steve roberts]

10 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I would have Lee in front of Collins Steve, Peter would of won it in 77 without injury but i believe Lee should of won it in 79/83.

 

 

 

 

 

Fair comments Sid. I base Collins higher due to his involvement in many of England's successes at Pairs and Team levels during the seventies. I saw Lee's first England cap at White City when England took on the Rest of the World...how things have changed that no one nation could stand up to England back then!

[Sidney the robin]

Just now, steve roberts said:

Fair comments Sid. I base Collins higher due to his involvement in many of England's successes at Pairs and Team levels during the seventies. I saw Lee's first England cap at White City when England took on the Rest of the World...how things have changed that no one nation could stand up to England back then!

Great points Steve and yes PC was a better team man i did also think of Mike winning the Longtrack title which was one hell of an achievement.Peter i feel was capable of winning a title from 75/ 78'Michael i think 1977/83???? 

[chunky]

2 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Fair comments Sid. I base Collins higher due to his involvement in many of England's successes at Pairs and Team levels during the seventies. I saw Lee's first England cap at White City when England took on the Rest of the World...how things have changed that no one nation could stand up to England back then!

As has been mentioned previously Steve, it is easy to attach too much significance to PC's record in the World Cup. Three gold medals, and three maximums, against vastly inferior opponents (Michanek was the only true world class rival in those finals) really shouldn't be unexpected.  Apart from Mich, the best riders in those events were his team-mates! Plus, the finals didn't feature Mauger or Olsen.

However, you are correct when it comes to the pairs finals.

Sidney - don't forget that Collins should also have won in 1975, but for those idiots who took it upon themselves to water the track. When you talk about Lee, there is no way you can say he "should" have won in 83. Muller was the best rider on the night, and it's not like he had a fall or Jessup-style e/f that ruined his chances.

Steve

[steve roberts]

2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Great points Steve and yes PC was a better team man i did also think of Mike winning the Longtrack title which was one hell of an achievement.Peter i feel was capable of winning a title from 75/ 78'Michael i think 1977/83???? 

Having read interviews with Peter down the years he makes a case that he could have well won three on the trot. !975 when some idiot was let loose with a hose at Wembley...1978 is a bit more debatable as he didn't qualify for the Final having missed out at the British Final (Iwas there cheering on Gordon Kennett!) when his fuel was allegedly tampered with...great thing discussing speedway. Full of 'ifs' and 'buts'.

[steve roberts]

2 minutes ago, chunky said:

As has been mentioned previously Steve, it is easy to attach too much significance to PC's record in the World Cup. Three gold medals, and three maximums, against vastly inferior opponents (Michanek was the only true world class rival in those finals) really shouldn't be unexpected.  Apart from Mich, the best riders in those events were his team-mates! Plus, the finals didn't feature Mauger or Olsen.

However, you are correct when it comes to the pairs finals.

Sidney - don't forget that Collins should also have won in 1975, but for those idiots who took it upon themselves to water the track. When you talk about Lee, there is no way you can say he "should" have won in 83. Muller was the best rider on the night, and it's not like he had a fall or Jessup-style e/f that ruined his chances.

Steve

Fair point alhough he did achieve maximums in three different countries...Poland which was always regarded as a graveyard to British riders back then and the Poles were notoriously fast in their own back yard but were on the decline by then to be fair.

[Sidney the robin]

2 minutes ago, chunky said:

As has been mentioned previously Steve, it is easy to attach too much significance to PC's record in the World Cup. Three gold medals, and three maximums, against vastly inferior opponents (Michanek was the only true world class rival in those finals) really shouldn't be unexpected.  Apart from Mich, the best riders in those events were his team-mates! Plus, the finals didn't feature Mauger or Olsen.

However, you are correct when it comes to the pairs finals.

Sidney - don't forget that Collins should also have won in 1975, but for those idiots who took it upon themselves to water the track. When you talk about Lee, there is no way you can say he "should" have won in 83. Muller was the best rider on the night, and it's not like he had a fall or Jessup-style e/f that ruined his chances.

Steve

The 75 final was a dust bowl and PC did suffer more than anyone on that night when it was watered.1983 Lee for me was by far the best rider in the world in the last three month's of the season he murdered Carter 4.0 in the helmet over two legs. He come second in the BLRC after getting a duck egg first time out beat the Professor in a run off for second.He won the Pride of the East slamming Hans again and clocking a mighty fast time in one race.Muller was good very good and he deserved his victory but that track was set up for him he had laps of practice and nine times out of ten would not of beaten Lee on any other track in Europe.

[chunky]

3 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Fair point alhough he did achieve maximums in three different countries...Poland which was always regarded as a graveyard to British riders back then and the Poles were notoriously fast in their own back yard but were on the decline by then to be fair.

Thing is, if you are THAT good (which PC was), you should be able to ride ALL tracks!

That is why I would definitely put Collins and Lee ahead of Tommy Price, and even Freddie Williams.

You mentioned 1978 also, Steve, and I deliberately left that one out as PC wasn't actually in the final. It is a great point that he probably would have had three world titles, and quite possibly a fourth, but for idiots, injury, and sabotage. Lee could - and probably should - have had more, but his problems were all self-inflicted. That fact alone keeps him well below PC in the ratings.

[chunky]

7 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

The 75 final was a dust bowl and PC did suffer more than anyone on that night when it was watered.1983 Lee for me was by far the best rider in the world in the last three month's of the season he murdered Carter 4.0 in the helmet over two legs. He come second in the BLRC after getting a duck egg first time out beat the Professor in a run off for second.He won the Pride of the East slamming Hans again and clocking a mighty fast time in one race.Muller was good very good and he deserved his victory but that track was set up for him he had laps of practice and nine times out of ten would not of beaten Lee on any other track in Europe.

Taking things one by one...

1) Lee was better than Carter anyway.

2) He still got a duck egg in the BLRC.

3) The Pride of the East was on his home track.

4) Nielsen was nowhere near the level he was to achieve in later years.

When we say that somebody SHOULD have won the world final, it is because they made a made a mistake (Mauger 73), suffered an e/f (Jessup), were injured (Collins 77), or got screwed (Collins 75).

Being the best rider on current form is a lot different from being the best rider on the night...

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

Thing is, if you are THAT good (which PC was), you should be able to ride ALL tracks!

That is why I would definitely put Collins and Lee ahead of Tommy Price, and even Freddie Williams.

You mentioned 1978 also, Steve, and I deliberately left that one out as PC wasn't actually in the final. It is a great point that he probably would have had three world titles, and quite possibly a fourth, but for idiots, injury, and sabotage. Lee could - and probably should - have had more, but his problems were all self-inflicted. That fact alone keeps him well below PC in the ratings.

I'd agree but the Eastern bloc tracks did present problems during the late sixties and early seventies and were somewhat of an unknown quantity and it took a while for western riders to adapt to not only track conditions but the mindset...although Ivan conquered that as he did most things thrown at him!

Riders nowadays, of course, ride regularly in foreign leagues and tracks and/or conditions abroad no longer present the problems that they once did.

Good debate!

Edited September 29, 2019 by steve roberts

[steve roberts]

43 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

The 75 final was a dust bowl and PC did suffer more than anyone on that night when it was watered.1983 Lee for me was by far the best rider in the world in the last three month's of the season he murdered Carter 4.0 in the helmet over two legs. He come second in the BLRC after getting a duck egg first time out beat the Professor in a run off for second.He won the Pride of the East slamming Hans again and clocking a mighty fast time in one race.Muller was good very good and he deserved his victory but that track was set up for him he had laps of practice and nine times out of ten would not of beaten Lee on any other track in Europe.

Of course I was forgetting that Lee won two consecutive British Finals when it was a meeting hard fought and won with so many great riders competing.

[Split]

10 hours ago, britmet said:

Freddie Williams had great successes in South Africa and Rhodesia in the '50s, - a time when all the World-class riders, Briggs, Moore, Craven, Crutcher, Nygren, Fundin, etc , spent the winter there - , including Golden Helmet MRC wins in both countries. He was undefeated SA GH champ in '53/'54, and had a 10.56 league average over his 2 league season there.
Details  HERE

From the forum's (self appointed) South African correspondent :

Ah, those were the days. 

[waiheke1]

1. Woffy 2. Craven 3. Collins 4. Lee 5. Williams 6. Price 7. Loram 8. Havelock

Tough choices between the two PCs for 2nd/3rd, and Loram/Havvy for 7th/8th, rest reasonably clear imho.

[chunky]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

1. Woffy 2. Craven 3. Collins 4. Lee 5. Williams 6. Price 7. Loram 8. Havelock

Tough choices between the two PCs for 2nd/3rd, and Loram/Havvy for 7th/8th, rest reasonably clear imho.

Yeah, tough to choose between the last two. Havvy had the one year of dominance, but Loram was more consistent.

Edited September 30, 2019 by chunky

[Sidney the robin]

2 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

1. Woffy 2. Craven 3. Collins 4. Lee 5. Williams 6. Price 7. Loram 8. Havelock

Tough choices between the two PCs for 2nd/3rd, and Loram/Havvy for 7th/8th, rest reasonably clear imho.

1./ Craven, 2/ Lee,  3.  Collins. 4./ Woffinden 5./  Williams. 6/ Price. 7 / Loram. 8/ Havelock a really interesting debate.

[Sidney the robin]

11 hours ago, chunky said:

Taking things one by one...

1) Lee was better than Carter anyway.

2) He still got a duck egg in the BLRC.

3) The Pride of the East was on his home track.

4) Nielsen was nowhere near the level he was to achieve in later years.

When we say that somebody SHOULD have won the world final, it is because they made a made a mistake (Mauger 73), suffered an e/f (Jessup), were injured (Collins 77), or got screwed (Collins 75).

Being the best rider on current form is a lot different from being the best rider on the night...

Carter 1981/83 was riding at a very high level and who knows if he had prevailed in 1982.!!!