British world champions ratings list

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, falcace said:

Do you think PC would have been passionate riding for GB managed by Alun Rossiter with no world class riders in support? Do you think Tai Woffinden would not have been winning titles and test matches with England if he were surrounded by world class riders and those competitions had the same prestige as years previous?

You are comparing apples with pears. And you are also looking back with seriously rose-tinted specs.

I actually enjoy watching modern day racing so your  point about rose tinted glasses is totally wrong.I actually preferred racing in yesteryear but that is my prerogative and my right as you have the right to your opinion.As for Rossiter do you know him???? for me he was treated shabbily and it did not end nicely.What Tai did to him Rossiter on tv was a disgrace a gutless act why not speak to him personally privately keeping it in house.?

[fatface]

46 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I actually enjoy watching modern day racing so your  point about rose tinted glasses is totally wrong.

The rose tinted I refer to is less about the racing and more about the people.

If you think PC was riding simply for the love of speedway, Belle Vue and England, you are being very naive. He knew his worth and if it didn't work for him, he didn't do it. He was single minded-just like the very best riders often are. It's documented that he notified John Berry he wasn't willing to ride for England in WTC and Test matches in 1985, but would only be available to defend the pairs with Mort. And on the occasions when wasn't getting the deal he wanted with Belle Vue, he entered talks with King's Lynn and Leicester to leverage more money from the Aces. Where he riding today, you think he would be putting Belle Vue and England above lucrative continental contracts in Poland and Sweden? Nonsense.

Now, I don't have any issue with any of the above. As I have already said, it's a short and dangerous career. Good luck to him. But I cannot pretend that the riders of yesteryear had some stronger moral fibre than today's riders. They did what was best for them, just like today's riders.

[fatface]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

As for Rossiter do you know him???? for me he was treated shabbily and it did not end nicely.What Tai did to him Rossiter on tv was a disgrace a gutless act why not speak to him personally privately keeping it in house.?

No.I do have a private story..which doesn't shine him in a good light. Not for here though.

But whether I know him or not is irrelevant. 1) He clearly has lost the respect of our top riders 2) He presents a poor figurehead beyond our sport, so why keep him?

I actually think he was allowed to move on with some dignity and was allowed to jump before he was pushed. You have to think about him in the wider context of national coaches and managers. Gareth Southgate, Eddie Jones, Dave Brailsford, Tracey Neville...not only are they highly respected by their teams, they are all highly articulate, intelligent, professional and presentable people. Good figureheads for their sports. Can you imagine Alun Rossiter being wheeled out in front of a blue chip company CEO as the face of speedway trying to secure some major backing? The mere thought of it is cringeworthy.

Edited October 9, 2019 by falcace

[chunky]

5 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

When you rate Peter Collins you have to like many others have done take into consideration what he won for England is that not true.?? Tai comes knowhere near in that respect a  great rider no doubt but any better no.

PC did not "win for England". Whatever England won as a team, was won by the WHOLE team. As has been said, he was just one of a number of world-class English riders at the time. Tai does not have that, and that is not his fault, but people still use that against him in an attempt to prove that he is not as good as PC.

Again, I'm sure that you are using the three World Team Cup holds (and maximums) to show how good he was, aren't you?

Again, England had more world-class riders at their disposal then than any other nation. THAT is why they won, not because of Peter Collins.

Again, the only true top-liner he faced in those finals was Michanek. The other top riders of the era either didn't qualify for the final (Mauger, Olsen etc), or were on Collins' team!

PC won twelve races in WTC finals against largely mediocre opposition. Woffinden won twelve races in the SoN final - against the World's top riders! And faced them twice!

Your above response to falcace was irrelevant; nobody was talking about whether you "preferred" racing back in the day. Facts are facts, and the two most obvious facts are :

1) Tai's world championship record is far superior to that of any other British rider in history.

2) With Tai being the only true world-class rider available, it has been impossible for GB (as a team) to achieve the success of previous eras (a la 1970's Denmark, and I don't recall anyone saying Olsen wasn't that good, simply because Denmark weren't good enough to win anything as a team).

The fact that you use the quality and success of other riders to bolster your views of PC is ridiculous, and the fact that you play down Woffinden's achievements simply because there have been no other quality British riders in recent years is doubly ridiculous.

Edited October 9, 2019 by chunky

[Sidney the robin]

4 hours ago, chunky said:

PC did not "win for England". Whatever England won as a team, was won by the WHOLE team. As has been said, he was just one of a number of world-class English riders at the time. Tai does not have that, and that is not his fault, but people still use that against him in an attempt to prove that he is not as good as PC.

Again, I'm sure that you are using the three World Team Cup holds (and maximums) to show how good he was, aren't you?

Again, England had more world-class riders at their disposal then than any other nation. THAT is why they won, not because of Peter Collins.

Again, the only true top-liner he faced in those finals was Michanek. The other top riders of the era either didn't qualify for the final (Mauger, Olsen etc), or were on Collins' team!

PC won twelve races in WTC finals against largely mediocre opposition. Woffinden won twelve races in the SoN final - against the World's top riders! And faced them twice!

Your above response to falcace was irrelevant; nobody was talking about whether you "preferred" racing back in the day. Facts are facts, and the two most obvious facts are :

1) Tai's world championship record is far superior to that of any other British rider in history.

2) With Tai being the only true world-class rider available, it has been impossible for GB (as a team) to achieve the success of previous eras (a la 1970's Denmark, and I don't recall anyone saying Olsen wasn't that good, simply because Denmark weren't good enough to win anything as a team).

The fact that you use the quality and success of other riders to bolster your views of PC is ridiculous, and the fact that you play down Woffinden's achievements simply because there have been no other quality British riders in recent years is doubly ridiculous.

Don't have a hernia Chunky chill !!!!!!!!'   you have had an agenda against me for a while.I did try to call a truce with you about a month ago  but to no evail you feel you are above me you are not.Let's get thing's straight my opinion is as valid as your's no better no worse you need  to except another view is that to hard????? take a deep breath Chunky or is it Steve or Stan ???  take a long deep breath!!!!

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, falcace said:

The rose tinted I refer to is less about the racing and more about the people.

If you think PC was riding simply for the love of speedway, Belle Vue and England, you are being very naive. He knew his worth and if it didn't work for him, he didn't do it. He was single minded-just like the very best riders often are. It's documented that he notified John Berry he wasn't willing to ride for England in WTC and Test matches in 1985, but would only be available to defend the pairs with Mort. And on the occasions when wasn't getting the deal he wanted with Belle Vue, he entered talks with King's Lynn and Leicester to leverage more money from the Aces. Where he riding today, you think he would be putting Belle Vue and England above lucrative continental contracts in Poland and Sweden? Nonsense.

Now, I don't have any issue with any of the above. As I have already said, it's a short and dangerous career. Good luck to him. But I cannot pretend that the riders of yesteryear had some stronger moral fibre than today's riders. They did what was best for them, just like today's riders.

1985 was PC a little past his best Falcace ???  not a great example how many years and times had he put England first for little financial reward.? Woffinden  won't even ride in a British final yet commentates  and probably get's paid for doing so  did he think sod this a Danny King or Charlie Wright might come out of the woodwork and beat him.? 

[sommelier]

2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

1985 was PC a little past his best Falcace ???  not a great example how many years and times had he put England first for little financial reward.? Woffinden  won't even ride in a British final yet commentates  and probably get's paid for doing so  did he think sod this a Danny King or Charlie Wright might come out of the woodwork and beat him.? 

Are you on the Banks bitter at Wolves!

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, falcace said:

No.I do have a private story..which doesn't shine him in a good light. Not for here though.

But whether I know him or not is irrelevant. 1) He clearly has lost the respect of our top riders 2) He presents a poor figurehead beyond our sport, so why keep him?

I actually think he was allowed to move on with some dignity and was allowed to jump before he was pushed. You have to think about him in the wider context of national coaches and managers. Gareth Southgate, Eddie Jones, Dave Brailsford, Tracey Neville...not only are they highly respected by their teams, they are all highly articulate, intelligent, professional and presentable people. Good figureheads for their sports. Can you imagine Alun Rossiter being wheeled out in front of a blue chip company CEO as the face of speedway trying to secure some major backing? The mere thought of it is cringeworthy.

So Woffinden who has hardly been Mr dedication to British speedway over the years decides he will mock Rossiter live on tv. That is big of him Woffinden should have a say but no more he feels his input knows best but he is not a messiah far from it.That interview showed me what he is about about himself it always has been.This new British set up has loads to do blame Rossiter blame British speedway but we are light years behind i except that .I like like the young guns coming through and hopefully a Palin, Gilkes, ( etc) comes through the system and move us forward.

[Sidney the robin]

10 minutes ago, sommelier said:

Are you on the Banks bitter at Wolves!

No a cup of tea of Charlie mate.!!!!!

[sommelier]

4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

No a cup of tea of Charlie mate.!!!!!

Charlie, Coke at Wolves!! 

[chunky]

6 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Don't have a hernia Chunky chill !!!!!!!!'   you have had an agenda against me for a while.I did try to call a truce with you about a month ago  but to no evail you feel you are above me you are not.Let's get thing's straight my opinion is as valid as your's no better no worse you need  to except another view is that to hard????? take a deep breath Chunky or is it Steve or Stan ???  take a long deep breath!!!!

I don't have an agenda against you; I have a distinct aversion to stupidity! Opinions don't matter - facts matter.

Just because you think Tai "isn't committed to English speedway", you use that to devalue his ability and achievements. There is absolutely no correlation between the two, yet you continue YOUR agenda against a rider who has achieved far more than ANY OTHER BRITISH RIDER.

I use FACTS, LOGIC, and REASON to show how good he is, and you counter that with an irrelevant opinion based on your dislike of him. How is that anything like an "agenda against you"? I don't feel that I am "above" you, but the facts I provide do far outweigh your opinion.

Edited October 10, 2019 by chunky

[Sidney the robin]

8 hours ago, chunky said:

I don't have an agenda against you; I have a distinct aversion to stupidity! Opinions don't matter - facts matter.

Just because you think Tai "isn't committed to English speedway", you use that to devalue his ability and achievements. There is absolutely no correlation between the two, yet you continue YOUR agenda against a rider who has achieved far more than ANY OTHER BRITISH RIDER.

I use FACTS, LOGIC, and REASON to show how good he is, and you counter that with an irrelevant opinion based on your dislike of him. How is that anything like an "agenda against you"? I don't feel that I am "above" you, but the facts I provide do far outweigh your opinion.

FACTS right!!!!      and my irrelevant opinion how arrogant is that what makes your opinion more relevant.??? Your posts are your opinions nothing more nothing less and to be honest they mean nothing to me so i suggest you go and have a good old rest up take a chill pill or to.

[Sidney the robin]

8 hours ago, chunky said:

I don't have an agenda against you; I have a distinct aversion to stupidity! Opinions don't matter - facts matter.

Just because you think Tai "isn't committed to English speedway", you use that to devalue his ability and achievements. There is absolutely no correlation between the two, yet you continue YOUR agenda against a rider who has achieved far more than ANY OTHER BRITISH RIDER.

I use FACTS, LOGIC, and REASON to show how good he is, and you counter that with an irrelevant opinion based on your dislike of him. How is that anything like an "agenda against you"? I don't feel that I am "above" you, but the facts I provide do far outweigh your opinion.

There are other fans in the Country who saw alot more of Peter Collins than you and i who still believe that Peter was the better rider.Does that make make them stupid??? are there opinions irrelevant?? you don't realise what a stupid comment that was to make.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Sidney the robin

[chunky]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

There are other fans in the Country who saw alot more of Peter Collins than you and i who still believe that Peter was the better rider.Does that make make them stupid??? are there opinions irrelevant?? you don't realise what a stupid comment that was to make.

Please try reading - and understanding - what I said, rather than just blurting out nonsense. My point is this :

It is your "opinion" that PC was "better" than Tai because Tai "isn't committed to English speedway". That is nonsense. Ability and achievement dictate how good someone is; your interpretation of his committal - or non-committal, as the case may be - has bugger all to do with how good he is or isn't.

You attempting to use that belief to substantiate your view is as worthless as me saying Tai is better because I like his tattoos!

I say Tai is better because his achievements are FAR superior to PC's achievements. That is FACT, not opinion.

You say PC is better because you think he isn't committed to English speedway. That is OPINION, not fact.

It doesn't matter how strongly you believe that Tai owes English speedway, or how many times you repeat it, that does not factor WHATSOEVER into any assessment of ability.

Again, I am putting together a case based on facts, and attempting to engage in intellectual intercourse. You are just ranting, based on the fact that your opinions and beliefs cannot take precedence over fact and logic.

I have never said you - or anyone else - is stupid. What you are trying to use to "prove" that is stupid.

Edited October 10, 2019 by chunky

[chunky]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

Your posts are your opinions nothing more nothing less and to be honest they mean nothing to me

So, it is just my opinion that Woffy has far and away the best world championship record of any British rider?

[Sidney the robin]

1 minute ago, chunky said:

So, it is just my opinion that Woffy has far and away the best world championship record of any British rider?

You dont get it do you ??? you never have lets give you an example Nicki Pedersen / Tomasz Gollob.Facts as you said says Nicki was the better rider !!! roll of honour says that as well 3 titles to 1 my OPINION only says Gollob was the better rider.You need to stop talking down to people and take a chill pill the way you respond to Gustix sometimes is shocking at times.

[chunky]

1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

You dont get it do you ??? you never have lets give you an example Nicki Pedersen / Tomasz Gollob.Facts as you said says Nicki was the better rider !!! roll of honour says that as well 3 titles to 1 my OPINION only says Gollob was the better rider.You need to stop talking down to people and take a chill pill the way you respond to Gustix sometimes is shocking at times.

You don't get it, do you? The English language, I mean... I have explained time and time again, but you just wobble on repeating yourself rather than answering a simple question.

Is it just my opinion that Woffy has far and away the best world championship record of any British rider?

[Sidney the robin]

7 minutes ago, chunky said:

You don't get it, do you? The English language, I mean... I have explained time and time again, but you just wobble on repeating yourself rather than answering a simple question.

Is it just my opinion that Woffy has far and away the best world championship record of any British rider?

Arrogant cantankerous nasty,take a chill pill your opinion gets flushed down the loo.I respected you once for your input knowledge that has gone out the window now but hey not the end of the world.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Sidney the robin

[chunky]

What "opinion" of mine? I am asking you a question. Is it really that difficult to formulate an answer?

You do realise that you are one of the most insulting people on here, often resorting to name-calling when you can't get your way?

it just my opinion that Woffy has far and away the best world championship record of any British rider?

[Sidney the robin]

1 minute ago, chunky said:

What "opinion" of mine? I am asking you a question. Is it really that difficult to formulate an answer?

You do realise that you are one of the most insulting people on here, often resorting to name-calling when you can't get your way?

it just my opinion that Woffy has far and away the best world championship record of any British rider?

I do make huge mistakes i hold my hands  up to that but your arrogance astounds me.People i know and speak to at speedway who have real knowledge speak to me on a level playing field you dont do that Steve you think you are superior.