chunky Posted October 5, 2019 Report Share Posted October 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, gustix said: I was looking for a composite overall list on a 'vote system' based on an eight for a top place down to one for an eighth rated rider. Unless you have a poll, there probably won't be enough to go on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 On 10/6/2019 at 10:23 AM, gustix said: I was looking for a composite overall list on a 'vote system' based on an eight for a top place down to one for an eighth rated rider. well, you just needed to go back and add up the lists? from what I can see 7 people provided lists, based on that the order is: 1. Craven 2. Woffinden 3.Collins 4. Lee 5. William's 6.Price 7. Loram 8. Havelock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 Thinking about it, my personal list would be almost identical, just switching Craven and Woffy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) Gustix as Steve said this is a really enjoyable thread great to hear other people's views and sorry if i went off course on the thread. Edited October 7, 2019 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 I suppose a quite different list would be which of the eight riders had the most potential. Looking at the way that Michael Lee strolled to his first World Championship at the age of 21, he might be No 1 for that one. At the time, it was mentioned that he had to be a contender to go on to match or surpass Mauger. Instead it turned out to be his only title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 4 hours ago, lucifer sam said: I suppose a quite different list would be which of the eight riders had the most potential. Looking at the way that Michael Lee strolled to his first World Championship at the age of 21, he might be No 1 for that one. At the time, it was mentioned that he had to be a contender to go on to match or surpass Mauger. Instead it turned out to be his only title. Of course, and when we were arguing about Lee before, I myself stated that while I wouldn't place him above Collins, Woffinden, or Craven as far as "best" British rider, he was perhaps the most talented and potential-laden rider in the history of speedway. Unfortunately, some people can't differentiate between "best" and "most-talented", and the sad thing is that most of the really talented youngsters don't get anywhere near fulfilling their potential. That's not just a speedway thing, either. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 5 hours ago, lucifer sam said: I suppose a quite different list would be which of the eight riders had the most potential. Looking at the way that Michael Lee strolled to his first World Championship at the age of 21, he might be No 1 for that one. At the time, it was mentioned that he had to be a contender to go on to match or surpass Mauger. Instead it turned out to be his only title. What he did achieve in speedway Sam, ninety per cent of riders would of bit your arm off for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 39 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: What he did achieve in speedway Sam, ninety per cent of riders would of bit your arm off for It doesn't matter; he was also the biggest waste of talent that speedway has ever seen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one of clubs Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 For the life of me I really cannot understand why some posters place TW above Peter Collins in this category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, one of clubs said: For the life of me I really cannot understand why some posters place TW above Peter Collins in this category. Because they go by performances and results... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 31 minutes ago, one of clubs said: For the life of me I really cannot understand why some posters place TW above Peter Collins in this category. Maybe because winning three World Championships in the Grand Prix era is seen as a greater achievement than winning one in the old one-off days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 12 hours ago, lucifer sam said: I suppose a quite different list would be which of the eight riders had the most potential. Looking at the way that Michael Lee strolled to his first World Championship at the age of 21, he might be No 1 for that one. At the time, it was mentioned that he had to be a contender to go on to match or surpass Mauger. Instead it turned out to be his only title. Lee, Collins, Craven, Woffy, Price, Williams, Havvy, Loram. tricky tbh, at least for me assessing "potential" of williams/price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 5 hours ago, chunky said: It doesn't matter; he was also the biggest waste of talent that speedway has ever seen... I'd say K Moran and Ward would rank higher. Lee did become world champion and make the podium twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 5 hours ago, one of clubs said: For the life of me I really cannot understand why some posters place TW above Peter Collins in this category. 3 world titles. Better gater, better round first bend, nearly as good from the back, not as good at team riding, but overall I'd argue slightly more complete rider given the importance of the start/first turn. you could argue PC was the most talented rider of his generation but potentially underachieved, whereas Tai would rank below Emil and Darcy for talent, but his focus and commitment has seen him be more successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 7, 2019 Report Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, waiheke1 said: I'd say K Moran and Ward would rank higher. Lee did become world champion and make the podium twice. The reason I say he was the biggest waste of talent because he had more talent than anybody else, and therefore more to waste, and his career was so short purely because of his own doing. I think that it is harsh to include Ward when his career was cut short by injury. Edited October 8, 2019 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 15 minutes ago, chunky said: The reason I say he was the biggest waste of talent because he had more talent than anybody else, and therefore more to waste, and his career was so short purely because of his own doing. I think that it is harsh to include Ward when his career was cut short by injury. I agree he had more talent, but when you look at what he achieved vs say what Kelly did (noting both came 4th on world final debut as a teenager) I'd say Kelly's was a bigger waste - not far off talent wise, but no comparison in terms of achievement. Darcy is a tough one - clearly he lacked professionalism in his off track activities- but he was still young, and injury robbed him of his chance of redeeming the earlier missed opportunities- and you could argue that signs were there that he was maturing. Equally you could argue had he not shown up to that GP well over the limit, he could have been world champ that season, which is right up there in wasted opportunities. And Darcy is for me the most naturally gifted rider I've seen (too young to have seen Lee's teenage years other than via youtube), though happy to acknowledge Lee to be a greater talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 Obviously, Lee was more talented, and he achieved more, but a lot of people forget that Moran was 4th in each of his World Final appearances, and actually averaged 11 points in World Finals - higher than Lee's WF average. That's still pretty impressive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 10 hours ago, chunky said: It doesn't matter; he was also the biggest waste of talent that speedway has ever seen... I can't disagree with that Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 I would agree that Lee has to be top for wasted talent. Yes, he did win the World Final once and make the podium twice more, which is, of course, pretty impressive by any standards, but, had it not been for his "other activities", I am certain we would be talking about him in discussions about greatest ever rider and he would be right up there with the likes of Fundin, Mauger and Rickardsson, perhaps even coming out no.1 on most people's all-time lists. That is a waste of talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 7 hours ago, waiheke1 said: 3 world titles. Better gater, better round first bend, nearly as good from the back, not as good at team riding, but overall I'd argue slightly more complete rider given the importance of the start/first turn. you could argue PC was the most talented rider of his generation but potentially underachieved, whereas Tai would rank below Emil and Darcy for talent, but his focus and commitment has seen him be more successful. Collins for me was by far the superior to Woffinden from coming from the back a terrific sight his sublime pass of Simmo in 1976 a typical example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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