British world champions ratings list

[Sidney the robin]

9 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

Sid, first Testimonial was Eric Boocock's in the mid-70s.  No such thing in the 60s.

I know that but eventually it could of happened? he had been there since 1952  and he was happy.And  there had been no reference of Peter  being destined to move.

[lucifer sam]

33 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I know that but eventually it could of happened? he had been there since 1952  and he was happy.And  there had been no reference of Peter  being destined to move.

Sid, he placed a transfer request in April 1963.  It was reported in the speedway press, and also recorded in the Peter Morrish book.

[JOS50]

You tell em Sam , I was starting to feel that Peter Craven was being overlooked on this thread. My take on the Wembley '62 final, (my first time  there) is that Peter was an

 exceptionally popular winner for both  fans and riders.

 

[steve roberts]

10 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

A few of the older supporters at Oxford used to talk about it.  From the Belle Vue end, the chap who sells the programmes at the NSS is considering to move. Maybe just a rumour, but maybe there was some substance in it.convinced PC was moving to Oxford in '64.  Remember Craven had already put in a transfer request at the start of 1963 (which we later withdrew).  To do that, there must have been a track where he was

Never knew that Rob!

[OveFundinFan]

I was a keen BV supporter before (and beyond) 1963, and BV rider,  ob Duckworth, was a close friend of our family. Never heard anything about these rumours at all. PC was a favourite wherever he went, always a gentleman, always ready to talk to fans. I can well imagine fans of other teams wishing he was with them, but I reckon he was a BV man. Sadly it all ended too soon.     Peter was patron of Wilmslow Hammers cycle speedway team (Manchester League).   I joined Wilmslow in 1965 and proudly won the Peter Craven Memorial Trophy that year.

Edited October 3, 2019 by OveFundinFan

[norbold]

From Brian Burford's book, "Peter Craven The Wizard of Balance":

"In what would prove to be his final season, Peter Craven seemed to be riding as well as ever. However, it was said that Peter wasn't very happy with the reduced number of meetings at Belle Vue, and he was considering a move. In the issue of Speedway Star dated 13 April, it says that Craven wanted a move because there were only scheduled to be twenty home meetings for club riders that year. In the following week's issue, Frank MacLean reported that the Aces' management had turned down his request. Norwich were said to be keen to engage his services if he did decide to leave the famous club.

"Although Peter began the season with the Aces, the transfer saga eventually went into arbitration. A court of arbitration met in London where they heard the points of view expressed by both the Aces' manager Ken Sharples, and the rider. The court then ruled that it wasn't in the best interests of speedway that PC's request for a move south was granted.

"There was also talk that he had planned to make the 1963 season his final one, and one source - who was close to Peter - revealed that it was felt he would make it his last year. After all, what was there to prove?

"Talk of his possible retirement is given credibility when Brenda confirmed reports that he had been in negotiations with Charlie Oates about possibly buying his business from him.....John Gibson, who was a sports journalist for the local Edinburgh paper, said that Peter had confided in him when he was in the pits during that fateful night at the Old Meadowbank Stadium that he was considering buying a motorcycle business in the Lancashire area......The Manchester Evening News sports journalist, Duncan Measor, also said that Peter had confided in him that he was considering his future., "I believe that in a year or two I will have to think about another job. I never want to go on until I am a has-been", he told Measor."

Edited October 3, 2019 by norbold

[norbold]

Interview with Brenda Craven In Howard Jones's book, "Belle Vue Aces Hyde Road Special":

"Howard Jones: Rumours suggest Brenda that 1963 may well have been his last season. Is that right?
Brenda Craven: Yes, I think it possibly might have been. He was always talking about it at the time, although he may well have ridden one more season in 1964."

 

[lucifer sam]

Norbold, all very interesting and further evidence that Peter Craven's plans for 1964 were much very up in the air at the time of his tragic accident.  Maybe he would have stayed at Belle Vue, maybe he would have made a further attempt to move elsewhere, maybe he would have retired.  No-one can know for sure, which is why I used the word "rumour" regarding the Oxford '64 move, because very possibly that's all it was.  Although I was very curious when I heard it from a Belle Vue fan at the NSS, in addition from a few of the older fans at Oxford.  It might be wishful thinking from Cheetahs' fans. But why would a BV fan also think that? 

Of course, the Brian Burford book comes down on the side of Craven starting off a handicap in his fateful race - something I just can't agree with.  Especially as I have a copy of the tribute booklet published shortly after his death which states unequivocally that he started off scratch, something the Edinburgh Speedway historians agree with.

As for rating the British World Champions, I consider the top three to be PC, PC and Woffinden, but can't decide on the order, as I never saw Craven at all, and didn't see Collins at his best.  But those three stand above the others IMO - Craven for arguably being the second best (behind Fundin) during a very competitive era, Collins because he was unlucky not to be a multiple champion (especially in '77) and Woffy for obvious reasons (the only British triple champion). 

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by lucifer sam

[OveFundinFan]

Well, all that in the books etc about PC is news to me BUT if that’s what was going on, then that’s what was going on. 

[norbold]

55 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

Of course, the Brian Burford book comes down on the side of Craven starting off a handicap in his fateful race - something I just can't agree with.  Especially as I have a copy of the tribute booklet published shortly after his death which states unequivocally that he started off scratch, something the Edinburgh Speedway historians agree with.

 

 

Yes, he is definitely wrong about Craven starting off a handicap, but I think that citing contemporary issues of Speedway Star regarding Craven's transfer request shows it did happen. My own copies are in storage at the moment, but hopefully I can get down to look at them tomorrow. I'll keep you posted!

[BL65]

As well as the limited number of home fixtures, Frank MacLean also reported that Peter Craven had to turn down continental engagements due to being unable to reach airports in time following Aces home meetings, hence his desire to be based further south.  In fact, following an interview with MacLean regarding his transfer request, Peter flew to Austria in early April 1963 to ride in a series of meetings before returning to take his place in the Belle Vue team in the opening meeting.  Although 20 scheduled meetings at Belle Vue were referred to as a contributory factor it was also considered likely that Craven would miss some of these due to a clash of dates with international matches and world championship rounds.  However, Craven subsequently only missed a challenge against Wimbledon when he was representing Great Britain in the World Team Cup Final in Austria.

[lucifer sam]

1 hour ago, BL65 said:

As well as the limited number of home fixtures, Frank MacLean also reported that Peter Craven had to turn down continental engagements due to being unable to reach airports in time following Aces home meetings, hence his desire to be based further south.  In fact, following an interview with MacLean regarding his transfer request, Peter flew to Austria in early April 1963 to ride in a series of meetings before returning to take his place in the Belle Vue team in the opening meeting.  Although 20 scheduled meetings at Belle Vue were referred to as a contributory factor it was also considered likely that Craven would miss some of these due to a clash of dates with international matches and world championship rounds.  However, Craven subsequently only missed a challenge against Wimbledon when he was representing Great Britain in the World Team Cup Final in Austria.

Again, very interesting. That ties in with one of the reasons I've heard behind the Oxford rumour  - that he wanted to sign for Cheetahs because it would be easier to get over to the continent. 

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

Norbold, all very interesting and further evidence that Peter Craven's plans for 1964 were much very up in the air at the time of his tragic accident.  Maybe he would have stayed at Belle Vue, maybe he would have made a further attempt to move elsewhere, maybe he would have retired.  No-one can know for sure, which is why I used the word "rumour" regarding the Oxford '64 move, because very possibly that's all it was.  Although I was very curious when I heard it from a Belle Vue fan at the NSS, in addition from a few of the older fans at Oxford.  It might be wishful thinking from Cheetahs' fans. But why would a BV fan also think that? 

Of course, the Brian Burford book comes down on the side of Craven starting off a handicap in his fateful race - something I just can't agree with.  Especially as I have a copy of the tribute booklet published shortly after his death which states unequivocally that he started off scratch, something the Edinburgh Speedway historians agree with.

As for rating the British World Champions, I consider the top three to be PC, PC and Woffinden, but can't decide on the order, as I never saw Craven at all, and didn't see Collins at his best.  But those three stand above the others IMO - Craven for arguably being the second best (behind Fundin) during a very competitive era, Collins because he was unlucky not to be a multiple champion (especially in '77) and Woffy for obvious reasons (the only British triple champion). 

 

If you did not see Peter Collins at his best how could you put him ahead of Michael Lee  Sam.?? I rated Lee higher but I did see Collins at his best and he has a great case but only at his best after 1977 forget it.

[lucifer sam]

18 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

If you did not see Peter Collins at his best how could you put him ahead of Michael Lee  Sam.?? I rated Lee higher but I did see Collins at his best and he has a great case but only at his best after 1977 forget it.

Sid, the power of DVD/video is that many of PC's finest moments are captured for posterity. And he was obviously an incredible speedway rider.  Plus he won 10 FIM Gold Medals and no other British rider can match that (and he was at the forefront of many of those triumphs e.g. his unique hat-trick of WTC maximums). As I said, PC, PC and Tai stand above the others.  Well IMO, anyway.

[chunky]

1 hour ago, lucifer sam said:

Sid, the power of DVD/video is that many of PC's finest moments are captured for posterity. And he was obviously an incredible speedway rider.  Plus he won 10 FIM Gold Medals and no other British rider can match that (and he was at the forefront of many of those triumphs e.g. his unique hat-trick of WTC maximums). As I said, PC, PC and Tai stand above the others.  Well IMO, anyway.

I agree with you 100%.  As I have said, considering the quality of the opposition, those three WTC maximums aren't as impressive as they first seem, but when you look it PC's record, he HAS to be above Lee.  As we have said, the fact that PC was not a multi-world champion was down to bad luck and circumstances not of his own doing.  The fact that Lee wasn't a multi-world champion was down to his own failings, and it is those failings that cause him to be rated below Collins.

Of course, it is DIFFICULT to compare any sportspersons from different eras, but that is why we have records.  For Sidney to suggest that we can simply dismiss someone just because we didn't see them at their best - or maybe didn't even see them at all - is ludicrous.  I never saw Fundin anywhere near his best, but when you look at riders in the 20th century, NOBODY can deny that Mauger and Fundin were the best two...

You can't just say, "He was better - I know, because I saw him ride..."

 

[norbold]

4 hours ago, chunky said:

when you look at riders in the 20th century, NOBODY can deny that Mauger and Fundin were the best two...

 

 

I deny it. What about Tom Farndon?

[chunky]

1 hour ago, norbold said:

I deny it. What about Tom Farndon?

Never saw him, so he doesn't count! 

[Sidney the robin]

11 hours ago, chunky said:

I agree with you 100%.  As I have said, considering the quality of the opposition, those three WTC maximums aren't as impressive as they first seem, but when you look it PC's record, he HAS to be above Lee.  As we have said, the fact that PC was not a multi-world champion was down to bad luck and circumstances not of his own doing.  The fact that Lee wasn't a multi-world champion was down to his own failings, and it is those failings that cause him to be rated below Collins.

Of course, it is DIFFICULT to compare any sportspersons from different eras, but that is why we have records.  For Sidney to suggest that we can simply dismiss someone just because we didn't see them at their best - or maybe didn't even see them at all - is ludicrous.  I never saw Fundin anywhere near his best, but when you look at riders in the 20th century, NOBODY can deny that Mauger and Fundin were the best two...

You can't just say, "He was better - I know, because I saw him ride..."

 

 

 

13 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

Sid, the power of DVD/video is that many of PC's finest moments are captured for posterity. And he was obviously an incredible speedway rider.  Plus he won 10 FIM Gold Medals and no other British rider can match that (and he was at the forefront of many of those triumphs e.g. his unique hat-trick of WTC maximums). As I said, PC, PC and Tai stand above the others.  Well IMO, anyway.

Can't disagree about any of this Sam and yes Peter was a brilliant rider and none of what i said was meant to be a slur on P.C.Yes i am bias about Lee and most people's opinion's can be blinkerd by there personal experiences.Going back to Peter forget all he achieved for me his biggest accomplishment was that he was such a fine embassador for British speedway. A fine example for younger riders ,Michael on the other hand  never quite achieved that accolade.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Sidney the robin

[Sidney the robin]

The point Iris made about Per Jonsson and your perception of a rider is spot on  i am guilty of a bias which is positive towards Lee.As Iris was  not totally convinced of Per mainly of his experience seeing live the same for me can be said of Tony Rickardsson.I see plenty of him and his achievements are remarkable yet i never really took to him don't know why because he was a decent chap as well.

[lucifer sam]

5 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

The point Iris made about Per Jonsson and your perception of a rider is spot on  i am guilty of a bias which is positive towards Lee.As Iris was  not totally convinced of Per mainly of his experience seeing live the same for me can be said of Tony Rickardsson.I see plenty of him and his achievements are remarkable yet i never really took to him don't know why because he was a decent chap as well.

Lee may well have surpassed Collins, but we'll never know.  As it is, PC's accomplishments are above those achieved by ML.  I've said PC, PC and Woffy are my "big three", there's a possibility that Lee would be fourth.  He's certainly above Havvy and Mark Loram.  The latter was a real favourite of mine, but he would have to come towards the bottom of the list.

Actually, let's have a go at a list (with the proviso that the top three are interchangeable):

1. Peter Craven

2. Tai Woffinden

3. Peter Collins

4. Michael Lee

5. Tommy Price

6. Mark Loram

7. Freddie Williams

8. Gary Havelock.

Edited October 4, 2019 by lucifer sam