chunky Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said: Carter 1981/83 was riding at a very high level and who knows if he had prevailed in 1982.!!! And? We are just discussing the world champions here, and "ifs" don't really enter into it. As I said though, as good as Carter was, he was never at Lee's level. Of course, the big similarities were that they both had bags of potential, and they both possessed the same self-destructive tendencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 1 hour ago, chunky said: And? We are just discussing the world champions here, and "ifs" don't really enter into it. As I said though, as good as Carter was, he was never at Lee's level. Of course, the big similarities were that they both had bags of potential, and they both possessed the same self-destructive tendencies. I would say Chunky alot of Michael's problems were that he liked to turn up one hundred per cent happy with his aquipment this was not always the case hence the no shows at numerous meeting's.When looking back he still had a great career crammed alot into seven years 1976/83 most riders would of been proud of it world champion, placed twice and a fourth place as well in world finals also a world Longtrack champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: I would say Chunky alot of Michael's problems were that he liked to turn up one hundred per cent happy with his aquipment this was not always the case hence the no shows at numerous meeting's.When looking back he still had a great career crammed alot into seven years 1976/83 most riders would of been proud of it world champion, placed twice and a fourth place as well in world finals also a world Longtrack champion. I saw him ride as a fifteen year old against Colin Richardson (also 15) at Cowley back in 1974 and Colin beat him, if I recall, twice. However as we know Michael went on to scale great heights whereas Richardson after showing great potential (including winning the National League Riders Championship) his career somewhat stagnated and he retired prematurely (1985?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 1 minute ago, steve roberts said: I saw him ride as a fifteen year old against Colin Richardson (also 15) at Cowley back in 1974 and Colin beat him, if I recall, twice. However as we know Michael went on to scale great heights whereas Richardson after showing great potential (including winning the National League Riders Championship) his career somewhat stagnated and he retired prematurely (1985?) Was it a wasted talent in your opinion Steve? Mike/Andy as a team had some serious knowledge on the mechanical side.As a rider aged 16 he looked so composed and for a lightweight had a great balance Mike seems happy with his career so that has to be the most important thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: Was it a wasted talent in your opinion Steve? Mike/Andy as a team had some serious knowledge on the mechanical side.As a rider aged 16 he looked so composed and for a lightweight had a great balance Mike seems happy with his career so that has to be the most important thing. Like Kelly Moran he could have achieved so much more. He could easily have become a multi World Champion but having said that Michael won so much during a relatively short career and not many can say that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 1 minute ago, steve roberts said: Like Kelly Moran he could have achieved so much more. He could easily have become a multi World Champion but having said that Michael won so much during a relatively short career and not many can say that! Kelly a real star a great rider a great man, what i remember most about him is how polite and friendly he was with the fans.RIP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 Just now, Sidney the robin said: Kelly a real star a great rider a great man, what i remember most about him is how polite and friendly he was with the fans.RIP. I witnessed lots of Kelly down at Arlington and he was a master of that track. Shame that he went home after 1982 when he was entering the best form of his life and was never quite the same again when he returned in 1986(?) in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 18 minutes ago, steve roberts said: I witnessed lots of Kelly down at Arlington and he was a master of that track. Shame that he went home after 1982 when he was entering the best form of his life and was never quite the same again when he returned in 1986(?) in my view. Kelly/ Ron Preston were both very good around Arlington also Kelly was a great team rider and he proved that at Sheffield/ Belle Vue.Can you remember when Kelly slipped through against Hans at Gothenburg in 1984.?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 3 hours ago, chunky said: And? We are just discussing the world champions here, and "ifs" don't really enter into it. As I said though, as good as Carter was, he was never at Lee's level. Of course, the big similarities were that they both had bags of potential, and they both possessed the same self-destructive tendencies. yes and no. Carter didn't have the natural talent of Lee (has anyone?). But he was better than Lee in 81, 82,85 , 86and pretty close in 83/84. Maybe that says more about Lee's decline? Carter in 82 was arguably as good as Penhall, and Penhall is certainly regarded as same class as Lee. Agree 100% on the similarities. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, waiheke1 said: yes and no. Carter didn't have the natural talent of Lee (has anyone?). But he was better than Lee in 81, 82,85 , 86and pretty close in 83/84. Maybe that says more about Lee's decline? Carter in 82 was arguably as good as Penhall, and Penhall is certainly regarded as same class as Lee. Agree 100% on the similarities. A great post with merit Lee i would say in his peak years was better in 1980/ 83 Carter in 81/82 two a piece as i dont count the other years both were declining because of differing reasons.Carter like yourself i saw him win all his BLRC title's and he was awesome at times he also had a decent British final record like (Lee).1983 does it for me though because Carter was very sharp that year and Lee slowly improved as the year rolled on.Lee had the measure of Nielsen that year and beat Carter/ Gundersen 4.0 in the golden helmet which took some doing. Edited September 30, 2019 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britmet Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 19 hours ago, Split said: From the forum's (self appointed) South African correspondent : Ah, those were the days. Appointed by the local club, WSRC, as their webmaster for 10 years, and via that and European connection, into the Sp.Star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) Probably one of the few people who has seen all the British World Champions my placing would be 1. Tai Woffinden 2. Freddie Williams 3. Peter Craven 4. Michael Lee 5. Peter Collins 6.Mark Loram 7.Tommy Price 8. Gary Havelock Just to add to this list Jack Parker, Dave Jessup and Kenny Carter as the best riders never to be world champion Edited September 30, 2019 by mickthemuppet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 1 minute ago, mickthemuppet said: Probably one of the few people who has seen all the British World Champions my placing would be 1. Tai Woffinden 2. Freddie Williams 3. Peter Craven 4. Michael Lee 5. Peter Collins 6.Mark Loram 7.Tommy Price 8. 9. 10 Gary Havelock Also one of the few that would put Freddie Williams above Craven, i'd guess !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, iris123 said: Also one of the few that would put Freddie Williams above Craven, i'd guess !!! Freddie Williams was world champion twice and one second which was better than Peter Craven. In different competitions I think they met 18 times and Peter Craven only won six of these Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 5 minutes ago, mickthemuppet said: Freddie Williams was world champion twice and one second which was better than Peter Craven. In different competitions I think they met 18 times and Peter Craven only won six of these But with an 8 year age difference Williams had the advantage of being at the top of his game when Craven was coming up and got out just as Craven was at the top. Only qualified for 4 Finals all at his home track,PC 10...... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, iris123 said: But with an 8 year age difference Williams had the advantage of being at the top of his game when Craven was coming up and got out just as Craven was at the top. Only qualified for 4 Finals all at his home track,PC 10...... Peter was only 29 so i would imagine he had at least one title left in him he was approaching his peak before is demise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: Peter was only 29 so i would imagine he had at least one title left in him he was approaching his peak before is demise. Always difficult to say for sure, Sid. But there would have been a good possibility of a rostrum place or two. And probably qualified for a good few over the 10 finals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, iris123 said: Always difficult to say for sure, Sid. But there would have been a good possibility of a rostrum place or two. And probably qualified for a good few over the 10 finals That era was so tough Iris with the big five about such a shame Peter was not around and Bjorn Knutsson for longer.Also Mirac had that big gap in his career at the highest level what a rider he was. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 Just another comparison. Fred Williams was never ranked higher than no. 4 in the World in Stenner's end of year rankings, a position he achieved twice. Peter Craven was ranked no. 2 once, no. 3 four times and fourth once in the successor Speedway Star end of year rankings . This in a period, as Sidney points out, included Fundin. Moore, Briggs and Knutson. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 30, 2019 Report Share Posted September 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: That era was so tough Iris with the big five about such a shame Peter was not around and Bjorn Knutsson for longer.Also Mirac had that big gap in his career at the highest level what a rider he was. Yes, but it was all in Knutson and Miracs hands. They decided their own destiny. Lacked motivation etc, whereas with PC it was taken out of his hands and he could well have gone on the achieve more 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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