Sidney the robin Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Pinny said: Neither has improved at all over four years , the very slight average increase is cancelled out by the league being weaker now than 4 years ago. Do you think this years league was that weak?? and will next season be even weaker in your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Pinny said: Neither has improved at all over four years , the very slight average increase is cancelled out by the league being weaker now than 4 years ago. Stop using the 4 year combined average as a reason. Dress it up how you want. masters improved his average for 3 years running from 2016-2018 - how has that not improved at all? Using your same argument Doyle should increase his average every year because the league has weakened. Has he? You can’t use one reason for not increasing (weakened league) without the other variables such as injury etc. 3 hours ago, Pinny said: Yeah. Says me. masters average according to Brum has gone up 0.17 since four years ago. Thorsell 0.27 in four years. tell me, in a league getting weaker by the year, how the hell have either of them improved???? Masters went from 7.08 to 8.11 from 2016 - 2018. That’s over a point increase. So that’s no improvement at all? Very odd way of looking at things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 25 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: Do you think this years league was that weak?? and will next season be even weaker in your opinion. Even tho it would appear to be weaker there have still been quality riders join our league in the most recent years. Such as Woryna and Milik who came back in low averages but were already making big strides abroad. Greg (Poole) and Tai (Wolves) have also made appearances. Obviously I’d prefer we encourage more top riders back which would have a positive knock on in attendance and there is no bigger supporter of a stronger league than me. Next year WILL be stronger because NP is back, no arguing. So obviously I completely agree with your point. Therefore I find it hard to agree with those who comment that riders don’t improve and use a weaker league as an excuse. Doyle’s average should be nearly 12 each season if we use the logic of others! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acef Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Pinny said: Yeah. Says me. masters average according to Brum has gone up 0.17 since four years ago. Thorsell 0.27 in four years. tell me, in a league getting weaker by the year, how the hell have either of them improved???? I'm not arguing with you subjectively, because it's immaterial. Their averages have increased. The circumstances around why, what way the wind was blowing or what we had for our breakfast this morning. I'm not arsed. Their averages have gone up. End of debate. Edited December 17, 2019 by acef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acef Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Averages are pivotal in speedway. It's how we measure improvement. It's how we measure decline. It's how we construct 7 man teams. Plenty of riders have got worse as the league has weakened. Plenty have got better. It's a very black and white argument. If someone's average has increased, they have got better. All the noise around it matters not a bit when it comes to team building etc. The paperwork says they have increased their averages and frankly that is the bottom line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acef Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 56 minutes ago, stevebrum said: Stop using the 4 year combined average as a reason. Dress it up how you want. masters improved his average for 3 years running from 2016-2018 - how has that not improved at all? Using your same argument Doyle should increase his average every year because the league has weakened. Has he? You can’t use one reason for not increasing (weakened league) without the other variables such as injury etc. Masters went from 7.08 to 8.11 from 2016 - 2018. That’s over a point increase. So that’s no improvement at all? Very odd way of looking at things. I'd also argue that Thorsell was on the crest of a wave before that injury. If people are going to start bringing in external circumstances and variables then so will I. Jacob would be an out and out number now if it wasn't for that crash. We can all play the game! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, acef said: I'd also argue that Thorsell was on the crest of a wave before that injury. If people are going to start bringing in external circumstances and variables then so will I. Jacob would be an out and out number now if it wasn't for that crash. We can all play the game! You make a fair point obviously! Some are trying to use just one variable as an excuse, which of course it isn’t. Jacob had a huge increase in the PL from 2016 -2017. To suggest he hasn’t improved in 4 seasons is quite plainly crackers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMessiahOfTheBSF Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, stevebrum said: You make a fair point obviously! Some are trying to use just one variable as an excuse, which of course it isn’t. Jacob had a huge increase in the PL from 2016 -2017. To suggest he hasn’t improved in 4 seasons is quite plainly crackers! Stats don't lie Steve. Both of them are virtually no better off than they were 4 years ago and that's in a league that gets weaker with every passing year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukas Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Why all the waffle about Thorsel?.. hopefully he's not gonna be riding for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acef Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, Rockstar99 said: Stats don't lie Steve. Both of them are virtually no better off than they were 4 years ago and that's in a league that gets weaker with every passing year. Your right. The stats don't lie. And whether you'd like to believe it or not, they have improved. The margin of improvement is not the debate. I'm finding it difficult to understand why certain people are having such a challenge with this. It really is very simple stuff. Foundation level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call me wolfie Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 35 minutes ago, acef said: I'd also argue that Thorsell was on the crest of a wave before that injury. If people are going to start bringing in external circumstances and variables then so will I. Jacob would be an out and out number now if it wasn't for that crash. We can all play the game! You are absolutely spot on, his injury at the end of 2017 clearly had a massive effect on him in 2018, as did missing the first couple of months of this season. If he can stay injury free for 2020, it will be a much fairer reflection of his ability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, stevebrum said: Even tho it would appear to be weaker there have still been quality riders join our league in the most recent years. Such as Woryna and Milik who came back in low averages but were already making big strides abroad. Greg (Poole) and Tai (Wolves) have also made appearances. Obviously I’d prefer we encourage more top riders back which would have a positive knock on in attendance and there is no bigger supporter of a stronger league than me. Next year WILL be stronger because NP is back, no arguing. So obviously I completely agree with your point. Therefore I find it hard to agree with those who comment that riders don’t improve and use a weaker league as an excuse. Doyle’s average should be nearly 12 each season if we use the logic of others! I actually think the league gained some strength last year Steve, every side apart from Peterborough ( who were unlucky team got scuppered) could all be competitive on there day.Doyley's average shows it is not easy set ups so important these days actually over a period i think the Pawlicki's and like might return to these shores.I am no fan of Pedersen but i am really looking forward to seeing him back and it will be great if he can get to a really consistent level and push Doyle he is capable even now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, acef said: Averages are pivotal in speedway. It's how we measure improvement. It's how we measure decline. It's how we construct 7 man teams. Plenty of riders have got worse as the league has weakened. Plenty have got better. It's a very black and white argument. If someone's average has increased, they have got better. All the noise around it matters not a bit when it comes to team building etc. The paperwork says they have increased their averages and frankly that is the bottom line. Not necessarily the case due to the heat format in operation now I'm afraid. The Wolves riders are case in point regarding that. Any of Masters, Schlein and Thorssell saw their averages rocket when they were riding at either No 3 or 4. Thorssell spent most of 2016/17 in those positions. When they ride at 1 or 5 (especially 1) their average dropped. As a result there was a pretty constant interchange between them for the No 1 jacket. You'd have to break it down and get an average for them at each position before you could use their average to paint a true picture of improvement..or not. That all said, if we are looking over a four year period then there is no question that they have both improved, as they weren't riding at No 1 in 2016. Questions could be asked whether they can improve further, Thorssell is the more likely as injuries (as pointed out) have effected him. Edited December 17, 2019 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMessiahOfTheBSF Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 question to acef and stevebrum. What is your opinion on Chris Harris. Is he on the decline? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren2 Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 I am pretty sure I clicked on the Peterborough Panthers 2020 Thread.... Next rider announcement sounds like it will be Xmas Eve, will it be another ‘New’ signing or a returning rider from 2019? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasser90 Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 22 minutes ago, Warren2 said: I am pretty sure I clicked on the Peterborough Panthers 2020 Thread.... Next rider announcement sounds like it will be Xmas Eve, will it be another ‘New’ signing or a returning rider from 2019? Think it will be at the end of this week if the tweet is correct, I read it earlier and I think it said news later this week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Rockstar99 said: question to acef and stevebrum. What is your opinion on Chris Harris. Is he on the decline? He is most unlikely to improve in my opinion and is now very much a "curates' egg". Brilliant flashes but often very poor indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acef Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Rockstar99 said: question to acef and stevebrum. What is your opinion on Chris Harris. Is he on the decline? Theoretical, yes. I haven't looked at his average over the last few years but I'd imagine the numbers will back it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acef Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: Not necessarily the case due to the heat format in operation now I'm afraid. The Wolves riders are case in point regarding that. Any of Masters, Schlein and Thorssell saw their averages rocket when they were riding at either No 3 or 4. Thorssell spent most of 2016/17 in those positions. When they ride at 1 or 5 (especially 1) their average dropped. As a result there was a pretty constant interchange between them for the No 1 jacket. You'd have to break it down and get an average for them at each position before you could use their average to paint a true picture of improvement..or not. That all said, if we are looking over a four year period then there is no question that they have both improved, as they weren't riding at No 1 in 2016. Questions could be asked whether they can improve further, Thorssell is the more likely as injuries (as pointed out) have effected him. There will be circumstances which impact people's view and riding at different positions in the team will have an impact. Don't dispute it. My argument is clear, however the average has been achieved, no matter where they were racing etc, there has been a steady increase and certainly in Jacobs case, he was really starting to move before that crash. Even if one of them had dropped to reserve ( I'm speculating) then naturally their average would have gone up, but the bottom line is still the same. I think there are 2 arguments coming out here, it's whether or not they have actually improved as a rider (which I agree is open to debate) or whether their averages have increased. In really black and white and terms an increased average would suggest they have got better but I totally accept there are mitigating circumstances in that debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, acef said: Theoretical, yes. I haven't looked at his average over the last few years but I'd imagine the numbers will back it up. He is in decline, he will never repeat his Cardifff or Coventry heroics but on his current average he is a absolute steal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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