Peterborough V Swindon Monday 9/9/19

[Gavan]

30 minutes ago, Steve Shovlar said:

 

Good old Muddlo 

When he decides to leave the comfort of the seat at Poole, where has been handed the best riders by Ford year after year,........and takes another club to the title then he can take the rise out of others.

Rosco has won the league with 2 different clubs and so has Pete Adams...........come on Muddlo time to show how good a manager you can be on limited resources

[hyabb17]

1 hour ago, A ORLOV said:

The moving of bends 1 and 2 have been moved in ( westwards) that is part of the development, inorder for housing to be built on the present car park .

TR would have paid for the widening of the straights and bends 3 and 4. 

Terry Russell always referred to the work being done by “‘my contractors” & as thcoomdog said previously I’m also sure I have read/seen him say he spent £50k on the reshape of the track. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by hyabb17

[Ovalman]

I hope orlovski is right.

[foreverblue]

42 minutes ago, Gavan said:

Good old Muddlo 

When he decides to leave the comfort of the seat at Poole, where has been handed the best riders by Ford year after year,........and takes another club to the title then he can take the rise out of others.

Rosco has won the league with 2 different clubs and so has Pete Adams...........come on Muddlo time to show how good a manager you can be on limited resources

Middlo will never leave Poole to manage another club, he is a one club man and at Poole we are all very grateful to have such a nice person to manage our team.

[A ORLOV]

19 minutes ago, hyabb17 said:

Terry Russell always referred to the work being done by “‘my contractors” & as thcoomdog said previously I’m also sure I have read/seen him say he spent £50k on the reshape of the track. 

I saw that the work was being done y his contractors, as we did not want the cock ups they had at BV, but the majority of the costs would fall on Stadia.

But even with his contractors, part of bends 1 and 2 had to be dug up and relaid. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by A ORLOV

[Beowulf]

55 minutes ago, Gavan said:

Good old Muddlo 

When he decides to leave the comfort of the seat at Poole, where has been handed the best riders by Ford year after year,........and takes another club to the title then he can take the rise out of others.

Rosco has won the league with 2 different clubs and so has Pete Adams...........come on Muddlo time to show how good a manager you can be on limited resources

Peter Adams has won it with 3 different clubs, Coventry, Cradley and Wolves.

[stevebrum]

55 minutes ago, Gavan said:

Good old Muddlo 

When he decides to leave the comfort of the seat at Poole, where has been handed the best riders by Ford year after year,........and takes another club to the title then he can take the rise out of others.

Rosco has won the league with 2 different clubs and so has Pete Adams...........come on Muddlo time to show how good a manager you can be on limited resources

In fairness I think we were all thinking the same when the riders were announced for heat 15!

Rasmus and Doyle I could understand, Ellis looked quick however 4 races between his last heat was a big ask.

[woofers]

2 hours ago, stevebrum said:

The 1st bend rule isn’t that clear either. But since when have rules meant to be understandable in Speedway? 

Correct me if I’m wrong but it’s not that ‘The 1st bend rule’ isn’t that clear, it just doesn’t exist does it ?

As far as I can see, the rules relating to heat stoppages are all in regulations 15.5 and subsections:

15.5 The Referee, alone, may stop a heat, following an incident or accident, by showing the "stop" Signal if in their opinion it would be dangerous to allow the heat to continue. Alternatively, the Referee disqualify a rider, where the offence committed may include allowing both wheels of the motorcycle to cross the inner edge of the track unless such action was for another Rider’s safety, or for receiving outside assistance, including communication to/from the Pits, 3rd party physical contact with the motorcycle or rider, regardless of whether it assists the rider or not, or is lapped, in which case the disqualified rider must withdraw immediately from the course, yet allow the heat to continue
15.5.1 Where a heat is stopped, the Referee shall disqualify the rider, who in their opinion is the primary cause of the stoppage, has indulged in foul, unfair, dangerous or reckless conduct that’s jeopardised the fair chance of an opponent. In certain circumstances, that may include disqualification from the rest of the Meeting, with no facility allowed in a team meeting.
15.5.2 Where a Referee stops a heat, and the leading Rider has completed at least 2 laps, then they have the sole discretion to either order a re-run or award the heat based upon the positions when it was caused to be stopped; Riders, other than the one disqualified being advanced one place.
15.5.3 A rider, unable to cross the finishing line, when the leading Rider has done so or the heat has been awarded, as a result of foul, unfair or dangerous riding on the part of another Rider shall be deemed to have finished in the position he held immediately prior to the foul, unfair or dangerous riding, as also shall a rider who has deliberately laid down his motorcycle, or has left the course in the interests of safety;

There is no reference to bend 1, therefore using the logic that there is some unwritten discretion for the referee to put all 4 riders back (for a bend 1 incident) who’s to say that the discretion shouldn’t apply to the rest of the race ?  

Rosco was wrong to say that there is a rule that allows a referee to put all 4 riders back, there is no such rule to allow this at any time.

[SPEEDY69]

I thought there was a rule about an 'unsatisfactory start'?  This is what is used to call all of them back for a first bend incident as they interpret the start line until the exit of bend 2 as 'the start'.

[stevebrum]

1 minute ago, woofers said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but it’s not that ‘The 1st bend rule’ isn’t that clear, it just doesn’t exist does it ?

As far as I can see, the rules relating to heat stoppages are all in regulations 15.5 and subsections:

15.5 The Referee, alone, may stop a heat, following an incident or accident, by showing the "stop" Signal if in their opinion it would be dangerous to allow the heat to continue. Alternatively, the Referee disqualify a rider, where the offence committed may include allowing both wheels of the motorcycle to cross the inner edge of the track unless such action was for another Rider’s safety, or for receiving outside assistance, including communication to/from the Pits, 3rd party physical contact with the motorcycle or rider, regardless of whether it assists the rider or not, or is lapped, in which case the disqualified rider must withdraw immediately from the course, yet allow the heat to continue
15.5.1 Where a heat is stopped, the Referee shall disqualify the rider, who in their opinion is the primary cause of the stoppage, has indulged in foul, unfair, dangerous or reckless conduct that’s jeopardised the fair chance of an opponent. In certain circumstances, that may include disqualification from the rest of the Meeting, with no facility allowed in a team meeting.
15.5.2 Where a Referee stops a heat, and the leading Rider has completed at least 2 laps, then they have the sole discretion to either order a re-run or award the heat based upon the positions when it was caused to be stopped; Riders, other than the one disqualified being advanced one place.
15.5.3 A rider, unable to cross the finishing line, when the leading Rider has done so or the heat has been awarded, as a result of foul, unfair or dangerous riding on the part of another Rider shall be deemed to have finished in the position he held immediately prior to the foul, unfair or dangerous riding, as also shall a rider who has deliberately laid down his motorcycle, or has left the course in the interests of safety;

There is no reference to bend 1, therefore using the logic that there is some unwritten discretion for the referee to put all 4 riders back (for a bend 1 incident) who’s to say that the discretion shouldn’t apply to the rest of the race ?  

Rosco was wrong to say that there is a rule that allows a referee to put all 4 riders back, there is no such rule to allow this at any time.

It’s interesting how what appear clear rules have been accepted as only after 1st bend incident requires an exclusion.

I guess it’s been accepted that 4 riders going into the 1st bend together may cause a crash or incident so a level of discretion may be required. It’s a shame it’s not reflected in the rule book tho.

Of course Roscoes reading of the rules of course comes as no surprise.

[woofers]

40 minutes ago, SPEEDY69 said:

I thought there was a rule about an 'unsatisfactory start'?  This is what is used to call all of them back for a first bend incident as they interpret the start line until the exit of bend 2 as 'the start'.

Nope, can’t find a rule about an unsatisfactory start. The regulations show :

“15.3. A Starting Offence is considered to have been committed in the following circumstances:

Gate Preparation after the expiry of the 2-minute allowance.

When a rider’s motorcycle or any part of their body or equipment touches or breaks the starting tapes whilst the green starting light is on or prevents the raising of the start gate.

A second offence, following an official warning during the meeting for incorrectly preparing the start gate area, disobeying the start marshal and moving during the illumination of the green light before the tapes are released shall result in disqualification (ie; second warning)”
 

Interestingly the “moving during the illumination of the green light” does not feature in 15.3 as a specific starting offence but is included as a second offence.

The actual regulation is contained in :

“15.2.9 When the Green Start Light is illuminated, no movement of the motorcycle is permitted, nor any additional time allowance or outside assistance can be given.”

There is clearly a case for the rules to be reviewed and rewritten in a clear and unambiguous manner. 

[theblueboy]

If there is no actual rule to confirm that the referee is entitled to make a case for first bend bunching, given this is the 21st century, why not actually introduce one to cover the eventuality and whilst they are at it, introduce one that gives the referee the opportunity to use a bit of common and put all 4 back when e.g. last night with Batchelor, Tungate and Vissing were involved in a 'racing incident'. There was also the incident in the British Final with Charlie Wright that resulted in his exclusion when he didn't actually materially do anything wrong.

It's not like it happens in every race, or every meeting, but allows some discretion if the referee feels no one is responsible.

I mean, is that too sensible even for the powers that be? 

[Byker Biker]

4 hours ago, theblueboy said:

If there is no actual rule to confirm that the referee is entitled to make a case for first bend bunching, given this is the 21st century, why not actually introduce one to cover the eventuality and whilst they are at it, introduce one that gives the referee the opportunity to use a bit of common and put all 4 back when e.g. last night with Batchelor, Tungate and Vissing were involved in a 'racing incident'. There was also the incident in the British Final with Charlie Wright that resulted in his exclusion when he didn't actually materially do anything wrong.

It's not like it happens in every race, or every meeting, but allows some discretion if the referee feels no one is responsible.

I mean, is that too sensible even for the powers that be? 

Unsatisfactory start gets everyone off the hook including the Referee, rules are not optional if you make a rule then everyone has to comply. As the sport is littered with vipers then abuse is less likely if someone has to be adjudged as the cause consequently the Referee is the only one who can legitimately get it wrong particulary when there are so many Referees who have never been astride a bike and genuinely wouldn't understand a racing incident.

[Mark]

7 hours ago, Gavan said:

Good old Muddlo 

When he decides to leave the comfort of the seat at Poole, where has been handed the best riders by Ford year after year,........and takes another club to the title then he can take the rise out of others.

Rosco has won the league with 2 different clubs and so has Pete Adams...........come on Muddlo time to show how good a manager you can be on limited resources

Never a truer word. 

[bellevueace]

We know Lemon is a clown, so can identify with Rossiter easily, and lets not mention that haircut 

[mikebv]

19 minutes ago, bellevueace said:

We know Lemon is a clown, so can identify with Rossiter easily, and lets not mention that haircut 

If you have a crap haircut I believe there is now a little known rule that says no barber necessarily needs to be criticised for it... 

Edited September 10, 2019 by mikebv

[theblueboy]

3 hours ago, Byker Biker said:

Unsatisfactory start gets everyone off the hook including the Referee, rules are not optional if you make a rule then everyone has to comply. As the sport is littered with vipers then abuse is less likely if someone has to be adjudged as the cause consequently the Referee is the only one who can legitimately get it wrong particulary when there are so many Referees who have never been astride a bike and genuinely wouldn't understand a racing incident.

I accept your point re the referees, however, both the instances I referred to were on tv. 

In reality, Vissing and Wright were both excluded for crashes they were involved in but didn’t intentionally cause. 

A referee would be hard pushed to exclude a rider when he has the potential to make a more rational decision. It’s about fairness to riders and supporters alike. 

[Grachan]

I think it's pretty obvious that thebpoint Rosco was clumsily trying to make is that if there is a fall then there is no stated difference in the referee's discretion regardless of what point in the race it happens.

For me, to bring all 4 back would be a cop out. If there is a crash, someone should be excluded. It's part of the fun. It would be too easy to gonfor the "racing incident" option.

The ref made the correct decision anyway. Vissing leaned onto Tungate's back wheel.

[Bagpuss]

I don’t see that Vissing had much choice, he had to try and get round the corner with what little track he had left at that point. I get the cop out theory and it would need strong refereeing but very occasionally you get a situation like this where nobody has done anything wrong and all four back should be an option. 

[bigcatdiary]

29 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

I don’t see that Vissing had much choice, he had to try and get round the corner with what little track he had left at that point. I get the cop out theory and it would need strong refereeing but very occasionally you get a situation like this where nobody has done anything wrong and all four back should be an option. 

But VISSING did do something wrong he hit the back of Tungate causing him and Batchelor to fall, and quite rightly was excluded.