Big decisions in November.

[iris123]

Less is more, snowflakes !!!

When Hamburg started in July of 1929 they managed to fit in over 60 meetings before they finished the season!!!! 30 meetings eh

[SteveLyric2]

7 hours ago, RobMcCaffery said:

I worked damn hard for it, having played a leading role in getting it televised from 1984. Having effectively two BSPAs at the time helped the situation. The British League couldn't accept an offer from Screen Sport to cover their league matches because they felt it would conflict with their deal for ITV's coverage of international events,.

I lobbied hard for us to go for the NL instead and it paid off. Luckily our boss was Chris Fear, formerly with Westward TV, the ITV station for the south west who used to televise the odd event from Exeter. He knew that NL racing was just as watchable as the BL and as for lack of names our audience probably didn't know any names anyway. 

We went to the NL management committee and understandably they leapt at the chance. There was one technicality. The deal with ITV specified they were broadcast rights. We argued that at that dawn of cable and satellite (five years before the Sky multichannel service launched) we were not broadcasting but 'narrowcasting'.

That won the day and we commenced weekly recorded match coverage plus open events recorded during the year to fill the close season until the ice racing coverage started in February. 52 weeks a year speedway was the result.

I know strange things can happen in speedway. First you have to try. Within a year BL tracks were queueing up to join the NL, tempted by lower costs, a still high quality of racing and regular TV coverage. 

It grieves me to see today's speedway with pathetically short seasons for many. Back then if a track closed in September you knew they were in serious trouble and were likely to be goners. 

It was fun. It isn't now. How do we get back to enjoying ourselves? That 21 team NL meant that apart from the KO Cup and 4TT there were 20 losers. Now winning is all and anything that doesn't contribute to a possible league title is written off as meaningless. The fun's gone. Winning is far too important and if you try to make a meeting fun you'll probably get hit with a hefty misconduct fine from the BSPA/SCB for improper comment that would write off an entire season's fees or worse if you were doing it for free. 

At times it's hard not to despair. How DID we let that all go? 

Speedway - a great idea ruined. 

 

If I've understood your post correctly, the 'nail on the head' comment is 'weekly recorded match coverage', ie not live?!  Is that right as I only go back to 1987 with Mervyn, Pete, and Alan Hodder.

[SteveLyric2]

Nobody has mentioned the FIM 'Rev Limiters' rule recently that is due to come in next season as far as I know. Or has that been shelved?

[mikebv]

Well over 60 riders rode this season and delivered an average of over 4.00 in the Premiership or 6.00 in the Championship..

(Individual riders that is, not the same rider doing both)!

Therefore, how about six man teams with eight clubs in the League?

48 riders needed with plenty of riders to come in for injury and poor performance. And no need for GUESTS!..

Maybe also use the Test Match formula of the first nine heats where all pairs race against each other..

Then three races of lowest scorers to highest..

Then one final nominated heat..

Run on a 39 point average so the average rider would be a 6.5 point man (decent level) leaving scope to include some of the higher average riders without needing to bring in 'makeweights' at the bottom of the team to accommodate them..

£100 a point average per rider would mean £7800 in total paid to the riders over the two matches your home meetings cover..

Due to less races than at present maybe charge £15?

1100 adult punters would mean £16500 so £13200 approx ex VAT.

Leaving enough headroom to pay all the other bills with programme profit and sponsorship?

Maybe run a six heat 3 a side 'junior meeting' each night after the main event too? Or just some junior races? Expenses covered (at best) to give some track time to new riders?

That would deliver 19 races for £15...

It could even be promoted as "less than a pound a race"!!

Edited October 3, 2019 by mikebv

[SteveLyric2]

2 hours ago, mikebv said:

Well over 60 riders rode this season and delivered an average of over 4.00 in the Premiership or 6.00 in the Championship..

(Individual riders that is, not the same rider doing both)!

Therefore, how about six man teams with eight clubs in the League?

48 riders needed with plenty of riders to come in for injury and poor performance. And no need for GUESTS!..

Maybe also use the Test Match formula of the first nine heats where all pairs race against each other..

Then three races of lowest scorers to highest..

Then one final nominated heat..

Run on a 39 point average so the average rider would be a 6.5 point man (decent level) leaving scope to include some of the higher average riders without needing to bring in 'makeweights' at the bottom of the team to accommodate them..

£100 a point average per rider would mean £7800 in total paid to the riders over the two matches your home meetings cover..

Due to less races than at present maybe charge £15?

1100 adult punters would mean £16500 so £13200 approx ex VAT.

Leaving enough headroom to pay all the other bills with programme profit and sponsorship?

Maybe run a six heat 3 a side 'junior meeting' each night after the main event too? Or just some junior races? Expenses covered (at best) to give some track time to new riders?

That would deliver 19 races for £15...

It could even be promoted as "less than a pound a race"!!

£100 a point? Are you serious?

[mikebv]

10 minutes ago, Skidder1 said:

£100 a point? Are you serious?

You think it should be less?

Could we say £99 a point?

Save another £78 if we could...

 

[SteveLyric2]

So you are pitching the level at somewhere between current NL and mid-SGBC level.?  and expecting adults to pay £15?

[poole keith]

hasnt matt ford in the past tentatively suggested the way forward for british speedway may be semi-professional riders?never be a shortage of youngsters who want to race motor bikes,who knows.Non league football by and large is a pretty successful and stable product.

[25yearfan]

16 hours ago, RobMcCaffery said:

I worked damn hard for it, having played a leading role in getting it televised from 1984. Having effectively two BSPAs at the time helped the situation. The British League couldn't accept an offer from Screen Sport to cover their league matches because they felt it would conflict with their deal for ITV's coverage of international events,.

I lobbied hard for us to go for the NL instead and it paid off. Luckily our boss was Chris Fear, formerly with Westward TV, the ITV station for the south west who used to televise the odd event from Exeter. He knew that NL racing was just as watchable as the BL and as for lack of names our audience probably didn't know any names anyway. 

We went to the NL management committee and understandably they leapt at the chance. There was one technicality. The deal with ITV specified they were broadcast rights. We argued that at that dawn of cable and satellite (five years before the Sky multichannel service launched) we were not broadcasting but 'narrowcasting'.

That won the day and we commenced weekly recorded match coverage plus open events recorded during the year to fill the close season until the ice racing coverage started in February. 52 weeks a year speedway was the result.

I know strange things can happen in speedway. First you have to try. Within a year BL tracks were queueing up to join the NL, tempted by lower costs, a still high quality of racing and regular TV coverage. 

It grieves me to see today's speedway with pathetically short seasons for many. Back then if a track closed in September you knew they were in serious trouble and were likely to be goners. 

It was fun. It isn't now. How do we get back to enjoying ourselves? That 21 team NL meant that apart from the KO Cup and 4TT there were 20 losers. Now winning is all and anything that doesn't contribute to a possible league title is written off as meaningless. The fun's gone. Winning is far too important and if you try to make a meeting fun you'll probably get hit with a hefty misconduct fine from the BSPA/SCB for improper comment that would write off an entire season's fees or worse if you were doing it for free. 

At times it's hard not to despair. How DID we let that all go? 

Speedway - a great idea ruined. 

 

The year the NL went to 21 teams was in 1985 but that soon reduced to 19 before the summer holidays after Scunthorpe Stags and Barrow Blackhawks closed. To many teams that season cause the likes of Eastbourne, Wimbledon, Poole and Exeter dropped down which made it harder for the lesser teams in the league to compete even more so with Barrow being out on a limb geographically.

 

Other than that the post by Rob was spot on. The 80's in  British speedway were much healthier times than present. I myself, much prefer a bigger League where you see a different team each week. Many people knock the large one League amalagamation of the top two Divisions in 1995- 96 but I enjoyed it for the variety, just a shame that the top riders weren't spread around more.

[StevePark]

10 minutes ago, 25yearfan said:

The year the NL went to 21 teams was in 1985 but that soon reduced to 19 before the summer holidays after Scunthorpe Stags and Barrow Blackhawks closed. To many teams that season cause the likes of Eastbourne, Wimbledon, Poole and Exeter dropped down which made it harder for the lesser teams in the league to compete even more so with Barrow being out on a limb geographically.

 

Other than that the post by Rob was spot on. The 80's in  British speedway were much healthier times than present. I myself, much prefer a bigger League where you see a different team each week. Many people knock the large one League amalagamation of the top two Divisions in 1995- 96 but I enjoyed it for the variety, just a shame that the top riders weren't spread around more.

Barrow were actually thrown out of the league for being 'under strength.'  They ran a few challenge matches after that, but low crowds then forced the closure.

[25yearfan]

Yes your correct, but thrown out or closed down, end results the same!

 

While a decent sized League is best in all sports, their is a limit and like I said in 1985 the NL was to big and two small clubs paid the price.

 

Amazingly the '85 NL was all set to contain 22 teams but Boston Barracudas pulled out on the eve of the season.

 

A Third Division would of probably helped to keep Scunny and Barrow going at the time. Unfortunately this lower Division didn't form until 1994. Another reminder that the current 3rd Division has to be retained!

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by 25yearfan

[GWC]

22 hours ago, poole keith said:

hasnt matt ford in the past tentatively suggested the way forward for british speedway may be semi-professional riders?never be a shortage of youngsters who want to race motor bikes,who knows.Non league football by and large is a pretty successful and stable product.

Indeed Keith and crowds pretty similar and income level.

A lot rent their stadia as well with volunteering a must to survive at that level.

All depends on the ‘rider demands’ and who is prepared to ride in the UK. Sweden now looks like its heading the same way so there could be more riders available.

A budget blown on one rider because he is GP level isn’t going to be very popular (with riders) but on the other hand might get a few hundred more through the gate.

Improve the racing and stadia experience is more important imo than who is riding and the promotion have to make a profit otherwise it’s bye bye.

 

[RobMcCaffery]

17 hours ago, StevePark said:

Barrow were actually thrown out of the league for being 'under strength.'  They ran a few challenge matches after that, but low crowds then forced the closure.

I had Chris Roynon as a studio guest before the decision to expel Barrow and Scunthorpe. In this he made it clear that he had not wanted to run in the NL and had only wanted to run on an open licence basis but had been told it was NL or nothing. 

The Barrow team was very understrength and would have struggled whether or not we had the BL teams dropping down. There were team strength and financial problems at Scunthorpe before the influx, if I remember correctly. 

The fate of the NL was not determined by the 1985 influx but the later merger with the BL which ultimate;y led to the disastrous single Premier League, based on BL costs and team strengths, unlike more recent proposals. 

Longer-term fans may recall the reasoning for the initial one league two division merger and single administration was based on "The Stewkesbury Plan", in which the then Poole promoter outlined the future.

It was felt at the time that it was a mechanism for Poole to progress, having reached their limit in the NL. Some would argue it might have been wiser for them just to join the BL.......

Oh yes, one poster seems to have been confused by my earlier posting. No, I was not proposing ac return to the 1980s NL. Time has moved on. I was merely giving a little depth to how and why we got by with what seem like enormous leagues to the more recent supporters. 

And, no, I was NOT suggesting that TV coverage should be recorded. That was a necessity, not a choice. The budget for those pioneering days was quite appalling but we were trying to build for the future and rise with cable & satellite TV to get proper budgets after a few years' investment. In any case, we wanted to get league speedway on the TV.

35 years on I think it's safe to quote the budget. £1000 per hour. 

Now, while modern TV professionals like flagrag wipe the coffee of their screen and keyboard that paid for a three camera, vision-mixed production, so we needed the following crew:

1xProducer/cameraman

1xDirector/equipment and truck owner-cum engineer

2xextra cameramen

1xvision mixer

1xcommentator

1xgofer - usually a kid working for nothing - although Andrew Skeels (now of the Speedway Star) used to help occasionally.

 

My cut was £60. No expenses.

You can see why the recorded programmes lasted two hours - and why we couldn't  afford live links. 

We were a bunch of speedway fans wanting to help our sport. Yes there were limitations to our coverage but wse got it all on air................

Back on topic, the NL in the 80s was a great place to be. I don't think we could ever get it back but perhaps we should learn lessons from how we lost it. 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by RobMcCaffery

[RobMcCaffery]

16 hours ago, 25yearfan said:

Yes your correct, but thrown out or closed down, end results the same!

 

While a decent sized League is best in all sports, their is a limit and like I said in 1985 the NL was to big and two small clubs paid the price.

 

Amazingly the '85 NL was all set to contain 22 teams but Boston Barracudas pulled out on the eve of the season.

 

A Third Division would of probably helped to keep Scunny and Barrow going at the time. Unfortunately this lower Division didn't form until 1994. Another reminder that the current 3rd Division has to be retained!

 

While not quite reaching 22, both leagues had run with 18 teams or more at various over the previous twenty years. Barrow & Scunthorpe would have folded in a league of 8 teams. 

EDIT: NL had 20 teams in 1975, 1978 and 1980. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by RobMcCaffery

[flagrag]

Rob McCaffery- Don’t have the exact figures to hand but the last season of Sky coverage was costing in the region of £22,000 per hour but when that’s compared with now a Super Sunday premier league football match is costing over £2,500 per minute just in production costs and not including travel or expenses 

[RobMcCaffery]

1 hour ago, flagrag said:

Rob McCaffery- Don’t have the exact figures to hand but the last season of Sky coverage was costing in the region of £22,000 per hour but when that’s compared with now a Super Sunday premier league football match is costing over £2,500 per minute just in production costs and not including travel or expenses 

Not surprised. After 35 years of inflation our budget would now be just over £3k, less than 1/7 of today's BT budget and isn't that supposed to be a bargain example? 

Mind you,  I once fell asleep on our caption generator during editing of an ice racing meeting. We were in the middle of France on an autoroute travelling from the ice track in Eindhovento the Costa del Sol for a bowls tournament. I hadn't slept since the recording. A few years later I was doing non-speedway work in a studio when I recognised my old pillow had been bought by them.

It was seat of the pants stuff. I will write about it properly one day, once the lawyers can tell me what I can leave in. That could take time. Anyway, enough reminiscence, back to this year's AGM. Will any lessons have been learned from the past?

The holding of breath is not advised....

Edited October 5, 2019 by RobMcCaffery

[25yearfan]

22 hours ago, RobMcCaffery said:

While not quite reaching 22, both leagues had run with 18 teams or more at various over the previous twenty years. Barrow & Scunthorpe would have folded in a league of 8 teams. 

EDIT: NL had 20 teams in 1975, 1978 and 1980. 

Quite possibly as Barrow and Scunthorpe were really struggling at the time but the influx of 4 tracks who were in the BL in 1984 the year before led to a shortage of decent enough riders for all the teams, hence why these two small clubs with small budgets couldn't turn out a decent line up. Scunthorpe in fact weren't expelled like Barrow were, they pulled out due to low crowds turning them into a loss making venture. The present day NL suffered a similar fate a few years back when Eastbourne and Birmingham dropped down from the Elite League, combined with Cradleys presence which meant that these former big time clubs were a more attractive proporsition to riders which left the like of King's Lynn Young Stars and Buxton finding things very difficult.

 

You say that Chris Roynon the Barrow promotor was told NL or nothing when he wanted to be open License only, which backs up my idea that a 3rd Division was needed at the time, which Barrow would of probably survived and maybe even thrived in?  

The previously mentioned Birmingham and Eastbourne would of been finished without the safety net of the 3rd tier in 2015. 

The 1995 to 96 one League amalgamation of the top 2 Divisions was a great idea apart from as you said the costing were done at the old 1st Division level rather than trying to reduce to somewhere closer to the old 2nd tier.

[RobMcCaffery]

42 minutes ago, 25yearfan said:

Quite possibly as Barrow and Scunthorpe were really struggling at the time but the influx of 4 tracks who were in the BL in 1984 the year before led to a shortage of decent enough riders for all the teams, hence why these two small clubs with small budgets couldn't turn out a decent line up. Scunthorpe in fact weren't expelled like Barrow were, they pulled out due to low crowds turning them into a loss making venture. The present day NL suffered a similar fate a few years back when Eastbourne and Birmingham dropped down from the Elite League, combined with Cradleys presence which meant that these former big time clubs were a more attractive proporsition to riders which left the like of King's Lynn Young Stars and Buxton finding things very difficult.

 

You say that Chris Roynon the Barrow promotor was told NL or nothing when he wanted to be open License only, which backs up my idea that a 3rd Division was needed at the time, which Barrow would of probably survived and maybe even thrived in?  

The previously mentioned Birmingham and Eastbourne would of been finished without the safety net of the 3rd tier in 2015. 

The 1995 to 96 one League amalgamation of the top 2 Divisions was a great idea apart from as you said the costing were done at the old 1st Division level rather than trying to reduce to somewhere closer to the old 2nd tier.

Even if the BL sides hadn't dropped down and even if there was a surplus of riders I severely doubt that Barrow's budget was anywhere near adequate to sign any of them. Scunthorpe's problems were financial rather than due to rider availability. They really shouldn't have started the season. 

Yes both needed a third division. The effect of the BL migration wouldn't have hit quite that quickly but a league with Poole, Wimbledon and Barrow and Scunthorpe in it was inevitably going to have strains.

This sad story had one personal aspect. I was NL Press Officer that year and had the novel experience of seeing my report on the withdrawals, forced or voluntary, on screen on Oracle within seconds of dictating it over the phone. 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by RobMcCaffery

[Debbs]

11 hours ago, RobMcCaffery said:

Even if the BL sides hadn't dropped down and even if there was a surplus of riders I severely doubt that Barrow's budget was anywhere near adequate to sign any of them. Scunthorpe's problems were financial rather than due to rider availability. They really shouldn't have started the season. 

Yes both needed a third division. The effect of the BL migration wouldn't have hit quite that quickly but a league with Poole, Wimbledon and Barrow and Scunthorpe in it was inevitably going to have strains.

This sad story had one personal aspect. I was NL Press Officer that year and had the novel experience of seeing my report on the withdrawals, forced or voluntary, on screen on Oracle within seconds of dictating it over the phone. 

 

 

 

During the war.

[RobMcCaffery]

26 minutes ago, Debbs said:

During the war.

You and The Weasel really need to keep up with your medication.

A cheap shot but about what people expect from you. Sad really. 

I've done my bit for the sport - what have YOU done apart from be a prat on a forum? Does it compensate for being such an unpleasant moron? My goodness, I knew you were an idiot but not that your insults were THAT lame. Still, it makes me feel young - like being back in the school playground, on a day when they'd the kids visit from the local 'special school'. 

Try harder. Give it a few years and you might be able to crawl up to stupid. Good luck, but I'd prepare yourself for disappointment. 

Weasel, I see he made you laugh. I seem to remember having to deal with your stupidity a while back. I'm annoyed with myself for wasting my time on you. Won't happen again. 

Avoiding reptiles like this makes not being involved in the sport anymore a lot easier. Thank you both. 

Back on topic. Big decisions in November. Make your postings as simplev as possible so Debbs and The Weasel can understand them without their lips and fingers getting tired. 

Time to open a window......

Edited October 5, 2019 by RobMcCaffery