One League

[SteveLyric2]

2 hours ago, Falcon1983 said:

The problem is, you are looking at my idea and comparing it to what it is now.

What if the money on offer is irrelevant? And people race speedway as they did "back in the day" because they loved the thrill of it and got something back towards expenses?

This is what I'm talking about, look at the Superstock 600 series at BSB probably similar running costs over a season as Speedway.... these riders are not professional racers, they have jobs, are sponsored to offset costs etc. The main real difference is the fact that they get zero prize money, it's all cost, cost, cost with only sponsorship or money from a day job....  this is the level of speedway in this country...

If it's not good enough for say Troy Batchelor (sorry Troy) then simply do not race in the UK, this is the only way forward or it will die.

I see a lot of middle order riders enjoying life outside of speedway as it is and holidays etc.  So the sport must pay ok in the middle order, riders will always want more, you cant blame them

Of course any new idea will be compared with 'what it is now' as you are not starting from zero.

I ask again what examples of current UK riders would you envisage taking part in your proposed set-up?

[DC2]

16 minutes ago, Skidder1 said:

Of course any new idea will be compared with 'what it is now' as you are not starting from zero.

I ask again what examples of current UK riders would you envisage taking part in your proposed set-up?

 

It won’t be a long list.

 

[Falcon1983]

On 8/6/2019 at 6:47 PM, Skidder1 said:

Of course any new idea will be compared with 'what it is now' as you are not starting from zero.

I ask again what examples of current UK riders would you envisage taking part in your proposed set-up?

Riders who love to race speedway 

I think you'd be surprised by how many will race and then work for a living which is how the sport should be

 

Out of the current crop I think you lose maybe 15-20 riders

[Sidney the robin]

On 8/6/2019 at 2:17 PM, Falcon1983 said:

Think you all miss the point...

UK Speedway should not have "professional speedway riders" in it, riders are part of the overall problem in the sport not being professional as doubling up has allowed them two levels of income, all riders are going to claim they are skint when they are not just so they can earn more.

British speedway needs to go back to racing on the best night for each club and if riders cannot attract enough sponsorship to cover costs etc then get a job!

Many riders at BSB level would love £26k back in prize money over a season, loads have jobs too...

Your "professional" MMA fighter on the domestic scene works for a living and fits in training, fight camps and fights...

The riders have had it far too easy for them for too long. 

Your last sentence is total nonsense.

[Sidney the robin]

On 8/4/2019 at 7:49 PM, Falcon1983 said:

I think it's time to wave goodbye to those riders who race in the GP series and those who earn a good wage in Poland and just give uk Speedway the opportunity to grow again before maybe the pendulum swings back to UK speedway where potentially bigger names return but I cannot see that happening for a good 20 years, the BSPA needs to 10yr plan and look to grow domestically not chop and change every 12 months. 

British Speedway at any level in this country should not be associated with the word "Professional" as it is not a professional sport, it does not owe a promoter, or a rider a professional wage.

If you look at British Superbikes one of the league motorcycle champions in the world there are 5 or more categories circa 200+ riders, there is no prize money, maybe a handful of riders are paid to race, costs are mainly covered by sponsors and most of these riders have day jobs, all of these racers are ultimately trying to be the next Marc Marquez but for 99% of the paddock they wont make a living out of the sport.

I think to progress it should be 2 leagues only, go back to the British League consisting of 8 teams perhaps those with the better facilities/support.

Then have the national league made up of the remaining clubs.

Purely as an example 

Poole, Ipswich, Belle Vue, Kings Lynn, Wolves, Swindon, Sheffield, Leicester.

£10 Entry for spectators

Revert back to the old 13 heat format

£50 per point speedway

Riders will have to make up the lost income via sponsorship.

National league can be more based around £20 per point.

British League play offs on BT Sport only.

Have a multi round British Championship across 7 rounds all LIVE on BT Sport, if paid by BT Sport if they contribute £30,000 per round.

Offer £70 per point (1/3 of BTs contribution)

£70,000 then distributed to top 8 at the end of the championship 

8th - £1,000

7th - £2,000

6th - £3,000

5th - £4,000

4th - £5,000

3rd - £10,000

2nd - £15,000

1st - £30,000

Pie in the sky you have more chance of walking on the moon than what you suggest happening.Look i am all for cutting the cloth accordingly making thing's pay but riders need to earn reasonable money they have to they deserve to they risk there life's to give us the sport we all love.If riders were riding for peanuts i would rather the sport go it is a tough sport a skilled sport and i would not exspect any rider to ride for next to nothing they deserve better than that.

[Trees]

On 8/6/2019 at 4:35 PM, mikebv said:

I have said before, British Speedway needs to base itself on the BSB model as against Poland being the WSB model...

BSB has mainly domestic riders, some of whom have tried the higher level and come back. Some of whom have ridden solely BSB and made a living out of it. And some younger lads who see the BSB as a stepping stone to a higher level..

What they don't try and do is compete with the WSB or let them impact their business and operating model..

British Speedway, like BSB has, needs to find its own niche, and it's own identity, which then delivers a solid fan base..

At whatever level it can afford to be profitable, racing on nights each track deem to be the best for them to attract that solid fan base..

And make it a success..

And then move on from there by organic, structured, annual growth, based on a clear development plan which has learnt from past mistakes....

Surely it has?  The majority of top boys want the big bucks of Poland and Sweden and that's what they are concentrating on .... I don't think we worry too much about them, who are they lol

[False dawn]

12 hours ago, Trees said:

Surely it has?  The majority of top boys want the big bucks of Poland and Sweden and that's what they are concentrating on .... I don't think we worry too much about them, who are they lol

If I read mikebv's comments properly, it goes well beyond losing the "top boys" to Poland and Sweden. The suggestion means rebuilding the sport in this country from the ground up. Standard machinery might be an example of the new British business model as well an agreed pay structure. We need to balance the books and increasing the entrance fee is clearly not going to work. 

We can develop our own version of the sport and make it a success.

[DC2]

15 hours ago, Falcon1983 said:

Riders who love to race speedway 

I think you'd be surprised by how many will race and then work for a living which is how the sport should be

Out of the current crop I think you lose maybe 15-20 riders

 

Frankly, if I were a foreign rider able to earn sensible money on the continent, there’s no way I would bother to disrupt my life and fly into the UK in the hope of earning a measly £15k.

So your suggestion that we’d lose only 15 to 20 riders is miles out IMO.

We’d lose at least 30 foreigners and see half of the UK riders retiring.

[1 valve]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 3:36 PM, Falcon1983 said:

As mentioned British Superbikes have riders who pay to race as it's a professional series but has amateurs competing within in it, there is no prize money its covered by themselves or sponsors.

34 meetings, say they average 10 points per meeting thats £500 x 34 = £17,000 in points money, most support class riders at BSB level would bite your arm off for that to offset their costs.

This level of rider presuming he's British should qualify for the British Championship.

Say he scores 10 points per round at £70 per point that's £700 x 7 that's another £4,900

So from 41 meetings, said rider earns £26,900 not bad prize money from a non professional sport.

I'd even go to extremes of making British Speedway a short summer series maybe ran from late May til early September and only have one home and away league fixture and concentrate more on the individual championship 

 

Well great in theory but.....
BSB has circa 12 meetings a year hosted by a professional series/event organisation who charges the public a fee for attending, attracts event sponsorship, arranges televison which makes the sport atractive to team sponsors, some of whom actually pay riders a full years salary. Sponsorship is also more attractive to sponsors in terms of supporting individuals due to the exposure to the attending (large) crowds and muli media exposure. Standard motorbikes have great appeal to the paying public so the motorcycle trade as a whole sees the benefit in supporting riders from grass roots upwards. Average riders are able work set hours due to the fixed nature of meetings to a maximum of four days of which two are weekends. This leaves 24 days to find which fits nicely into PAID holiday.

Now your average speedway rider is going to need 41 days to complete the schedule you have outlined many of which will be during the week. and almost impossible to complete and hold down a regular job given the diiferent days he is away from the role. Being average and not your super performer who scores  10 points a meeting (err how many of them even today?) our hero is likey to earn no more than 10K a year before tax which would not cover his expenses. Given that he also is not recieving great sponsorship v BSB types he would find it impossible to ride/race in the number of meetings you suggest, nor would many others who would find themselves in a similar position. The result would be weekend warriors enjoying their hobby but with fewer skills thus far less teams and fewer meetings of interest to justify a reasonable admission. So ultimately more track closures.

Although well meaning, its pretty clear  your propsal and those similar to it would actually lead to the rapid and total demise of the sport in the UK with  meetings being nothing more than amateurs paying £50 to skid around a track as a hobby with no one watching. Now, if you want a glimpse into the future of what your visionary thinking  will deliver, get along to a practice sesion at Buxton or somehwere similar and lets us know how much you would be prepared to pay (its free at the moment) to watch such an event? and then ask where the growth of the sport would come from or more importantly go too?

To be clear, I am not advocating that everything in the current UK speedway garden is rosy, far from it, The answer is however for the sport to become more professional in thinking and implementation than current , most probably with less professional riders and teams but far, far better run & promoted thus creating a better run and more appealing sport for would be riders to aspire to as well as being a product which attracts greater number of paying spectators and media coverage and thus significant sponsors and other similar revenue streams.

Edited August 8, 2019 by 1 valve

[False dawn]

So what about one big league i.e. a merger of the current Premiership and Championship plus a development league as per the current National League. I'm sure sensible rules around doubling up could be devised.

The one big league, lets call it the British League could be comprised of teams of semi professional riders. Each club could draw a 6 man team (say) from a squad of 8 including riders from the NL. This would allow some riders to have a job as well as riding speedway and not have to commit to every fixture. Don't tell me there ain't enough riders based on the current numbers, this is a different model. Yes it is a lower standard, but we have to cut our coat according to our cloth. There are plenty of youngsters out there wanting to break into the sport and they will when the vacancies are there. And many of the barriers to the entry of those new youngsters would be lowered by this new model. Standard equipment reduces costs significantly. A modest income at the lower end would be offset by riders having a job. 

This is how the sport got started here and elsewhere. Pretending we can continue with a business model based on 1970's attendances and sponsorship is the "head in the sand" approach to management. Promoters are the ones taking the risk with their own money. We have to create an environment where they can provide us with a watchable product and make money. Yes, we have to acknowledge that these guys and galls can make a profit. It's not illegal or immoral.

[DC2]

 

Neil Watson has just suggested that a Championship side pays about £4K per match to its riders and the Premiership about £10k, but each home fixture has to cover an away fixture’s pay too.

So the CL needs £8k per fixture and the PL £20k.

Quite a surprising difference.

 

 

[NeilWatson]

46 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

Neil Watson has just suggested that a Championship side pays about £4K per match to its riders and the Premiership about £10k, but each home fixture has to cover an away fixture’s pay too.

So the CL needs £8k per fixture and the PL £20k.

Quite a surprising difference.

 

 

What I said, responding to MikeBV on another thread, was: ‘Each Club pays its own riders home and away of course, so a home meeting needs to cover rider pay for one home and one away meeting. A good rule of thumb is 100 points home and away, in my opinion £20k would be right at the top of the range; for a Premiership Club paying more than average and scoring well home and away (hence successful, which should enhance the crowd).  Around £12k would be nearer the mark.’

£20k was MikeBV’s figure, not mine

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by NeilWatson

[DC2]

2 minutes ago, NeilWatson said:

What I said was: ‘Each Club pays its own riders home and away of course, so a home meeting needs to cover rider pay for one home and one away meeting. A good rule of thumb is 100 points home and away, in my opinion £20k would be right at the top of the range; for a Premiership Club paying more than average and scoring well home and away (hence successful, which should enhance the crowd).  Around £12k would be nearer the mark.’

 

 

Apologies, I mis-read that.

So a typical wage per match would be (£4K CL), £6k PL or £10k for a top PL club with big crowds?

 

[NeilWatson]

1 minute ago, DC2 said:

 

Apologies, I mis-read that.

So a typical wage per match would be (£4K CL), £6k PL or £10k for a top PL club with big crowds?

 

They would be reasonable figures in my opinion.

[DC2]

1 minute ago, NeilWatson said:

They would be reasonable figures in my opinion.

 

Thanks. And thanks for all of your posts, which are usually very helpful.

[SteveLyric2]

I would agree those figures in the PL say 50 points at home paying an average of £120 per point (£150 top end; £80/£100 reserves).

 

Interesting to know what doubling up/down riders settle for? Say a PL reserve who is also a CL Heat leader?

Edited August 9, 2019 by Skidder1

[NeilWatson]

57 minutes ago, Skidder1 said:

Interesting to know what doubling up/down riders settle for? Say a PL reserve who is also a CL Heat leader?

PL reserve pay and CL heat-leader pay