Tai / Rosco - Team GB 2020

[chunky]

3 minutes ago, craigACE said:

You are very much right about Peter Craven. I have spoken to many a fellow fan who says he was the best ever full stop in fact. I cannot judge somebody who was a lot before my time tbh. I will always say Tai.

 Craven is a genuine contender, with two wins and two thirds, in a career that wasn't cut short by his own frailties and poor decisions. As others have said, Lee's self-destruction weighs heavily against him, as there is more to being an all-time great than talent and potential.

[craigACE]

Looks to me like most people agree on who is the best from a era. So as a example whoever was the best 60s/70s, 80s/90s up until now. Then the question gets asked who out of those 3 eras is the best ?. Ultimately making them the best ever. Nobody agrees. Why compare anyway ?. The Sport was different then. And i wouldnt care most people(me included) was not around to see Peter Craven etc. Suppose it is fun. I prefer debating the best ever Belle Vue riders.

[Midland Red]

44 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

That doesn't exactly help your case does it!

It defines the word “opinion”

I gave my “opinion”

I did not state a “fact”

You regularly give on this forum your own “opinions” on assorted matters, the majority of which are other people’s “opinions”, with which you disagree - meaning that you consider your “opinions” in some way superior to other people’s “opinions”

Where you disprove “facts” quoted by others, there can be little argument or discussion

But if it’s an “opinion” with which you disagree, or which you disprove of, then that is an entirely different matter

I stick by my “opinion” about Michael Lee and Tai Woffinden, whether you disagree, disapprove or not

I made no statement of “fact” about the two riders, so there can be no discussion there

[orion]

1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

But not as good as Buzz Burrows

Have you  ever watched him live Witcher ? I will  meet you for a shandy at Wolves tomorrow if you don't turn up  are  tell everyone you  are a coward ? how about it witcher yes or no ?

Edited August 11, 2019 by orion

[phillipsr]

18 minutes ago, orion said:

How ever watched him live Witcher ? I will  meet you for a shandy at Wolves tomorrow if you don't turn up  are  tell everyone you  are a coward ? how about it witcher yes or no ?

Burrows and Josh Auty would of ruled world speedway of it was just based on pure talent... Lee, Woffinden, Craven also rans in comparison 

[chunky]

57 minutes ago, craigACE said:

Looks to me like most people agree on who is the best from a era. So as a example whoever was the best 60s/70s, 80s/90s up until now. Then the question gets asked who out of those 3 eras is the best ?. Ultimately making them the best ever. Nobody agrees. Why compare anyway ?. The Sport was different then. And i wouldnt care most people(me included) was not around to see Peter Craven etc. Suppose it is fun. I prefer debating the best ever Belle Vue riders.

Thing is, while titles aren't everything (certainly not National Championships anyway), they are a guide at the highest level. Therefore, Woffinden's record is far superior to that of any British rider, which is why we believe he is the best. Craven won less, but as I said, he can be considered a genuine contender for the moniker of "Best Brit".

Lee's record is worse, and his self-destructive streak and poor temperament means that realistically, he is not in the same class as Woffinden or Craven. Just because he had more talent and more potential doesn't mean that he was better.

It's not just a case of people looking at riders from their own era. Most on here will class Mauger and Rickardsson as the best of all-time, with Fundin also up there.

Steve

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, Midland Red said:

It defines the word “opinion”

I gave my “opinion”

I did not state a “fact”

You regularly give on this forum your own “opinions” on assorted matters, the majority of which are other people’s “opinions”, with which you disagree - meaning that you consider your “opinions” in some way superior to other people’s “opinions”

Where you disprove “facts” quoted by others, there can be little argument or discussion

But if it’s an “opinion” with which you disagree, or which you disprove of, then that is an entirely different matter

I stick by my “opinion” about Michael Lee and Tai Woffinden, whether you disagree, disapprove or not

I made no statement of “fact” about the two riders, so there can be no discussion there

Still not got a clue have you.

An opinion is worthless in any form of intelligent conversation unless backed up with reasons.

"I saw them both" most certainly does not qualify as one of them when they would have been on different machinery, different opponents, different track surfaces. In fact, anyone attempting to give an opinion based on that is foolish in the extreme..... 

It's you getting all worked up because you have quite simply been unable to back up your opinion with anything at all.

[Midland Red]

I don’t need a clue, and I’m certainly not “getting all worked up” - sometimes you are unreal with your comments!

In fact I am totally comfortable with my opinion, having followed this sport since 1964, that Lee was a better rider than Woffinden

Not more successful in terms of achievement, I grant you - I have no problem with that - nor with the question of their respective behaviour 

Regarding behaviour, as others have referenced, you are very quick to label forum members and their opinions as unintelligent, foolish, and many other adjectives, in an apparent attempt to belittle them

Not sure how high your horse is, but it seems to tower over the majority of reasonable forum members

We are all entitled to an opinion, yourself included - they don’t need justification, because that it what they are, opinions, and they don’t call for your personal crusade to belittle or insult those with which your opinion differs

Perhaps now, you will “get it”!

PS I think it was you (apologies if it wasn’t) who mentioned bias - I said there’s no bias involved in Lee v Woffinden; the only rider I have ever been biased against was, and still is, Ole Olsen, and I’ve consistently admitted that!

 

[Mark]

11 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

I don’t need a clue, and I’m certainly not “getting all worked up” - sometimes you are unreal with your comments!

In fact I am totally comfortable with my opinion, having followed this sport since 1964, that Lee was a better rider than Woffinden

Not more successful in terms of achievement, I grant you - I have no problem with that - nor with the question of their respective behaviour 

Regarding behaviour, as others have referenced, you are very quick to label forum members and their opinions as unintelligent, foolish, and many other adjectives, in an apparent attempt to belittle them

Not sure how high your horse is, but it seems to tower over the majority of reasonable forum members

We are all entitled to an opinion, yourself included - they don’t need justification, because that it what they are, opinions, and they don’t call for your personal crusade to belittle or insult those with which your opinion differs

Perhaps now, you will “get it”!

PS I think it was you (apologies if it wasn’t) who mentioned bias - I said there’s no bias involved in Lee v Woffinden; the only rider I have ever been biased against was, and still is, Ole Olsen, and I’ve consistently admitted that!

 

can't see how anyone can compare riders from different era's who used different bikes and competed in a different style GP series.    its all personal so no one is right no one wrong.   its what you like best.

[norbold]

3 hours ago, chunky said:

 

It's not just a case of people looking at riders from their own era. Most on here will class Mauger and Rickardsson as the best of all-time, with Fundin also up there.

Steve

I'm not sure that's quite true, Steve. The three you mention are still sort of within living memory. I've seen all three for example. Where would you place Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Jack Young.....for example?

Only a matter of opinion of course. Oh, and what about Savalas Clouting?

[chunky]

19 minutes ago, norbold said:

I'm not sure that's quite true, Steve. The three you mention are still sort of within living memory. I've seen all three for example. Where would you place Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Jack Young.....for example?

Only a matter of opinion of course. Oh, and what about Savalas Clouting?

That's why I said "most". You and I are a little more accepting,  and of course, all of those you mention I do rate among the all-time greats. Along with Cordy Milne....

Unfortunately, people get too bogged down in two things :

1) "I didn't see him, so I can't include him!"

2) "It was a lot better in my day!"

Um, that's why we have records and results so we CAN make comparisons.

Clouting was good, but I think Richard Pettman was better. Well, his hair was, anyway!

Steve

[Terry]

9 hours ago, chunky said:

That's why I said "most". You and I are a little more accepting,  and of course, all of those you mention I do rate among the all-time greats. Along with Cordy Milne....

Unfortunately, people get too bogged down in two things :

1) "I didn't see him, so I can't include him!"

2) "It was a lot better in my day!"

Um, that's why we have records and results so we CAN make comparisons.

Clouting was good, but I think Richard Pettman was better. Well, his hair was, anyway!

Steve

We had to delay the start of the annual Hackney speedway Thames riverboat cruise one year, because Richard Pettman was late. Probably sorting his hair out!

[BWitcher]

On 8/11/2019 at 9:15 PM, Midland Red said:

I don’t need a clue, and I’m certainly not “getting all worked up” - sometimes you are unreal with your comments!

In fact I am totally comfortable with my opinion, having followed this sport since 1964, that Lee was a better rider than Woffinden

Not more successful in terms of achievement, I grant you - I have no problem with that - nor with the question of their respective behaviour 

Regarding behaviour, as others have referenced, you are very quick to label forum members and their opinions as unintelligent, foolish, and many other adjectives, in an apparent attempt to belittle them

Not sure how high your horse is, but it seems to tower over the majority of reasonable forum members

We are all entitled to an opinion, yourself included - they don’t need justification, because that it what they are, opinions, and they don’t call for your personal crusade to belittle or insult those with which your opinion differs

Perhaps now, you will “get it”!

PS I think it was you (apologies if it wasn’t) who mentioned bias - I said there’s no bias involved in Lee v Woffinden; the only rider I have ever been biased against was, and still is, Ole Olsen, and I’ve consistently admitted that!

 

So another long post with absolutely nothing to back up this 'opinion'.

[BWitcher]

On 8/11/2019 at 9:29 PM, Mark said:

can't see how anyone can compare riders from different era's who used different bikes and competed in a different style GP series.    its all personal so no one is right no one wrong.   its what you like best.

Exactly! Which is why saying I saw them both ride is utterly worthless.

We can only compare on achievements in their respective eras and in that Lee doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[Gavan]

Some people on here are laughable

To have an opinion you have to back that opinion up with reasoning.

My favourite rider ever was Mark Loram, right from the early days of being a mascot when my family helped to sponsor him right until his career ending crash

Is Mark Loram better to watch then Tai? In my opinion yes...........was Mark a better rider than Tai......no....more naturally talented...maybe

Those saying Lee was a 'better' rider than Tai isnt up for debate....he isnt

Was Lee better than Tai to watch? Maybe....Was he more naturally talented? I believe so

I think people get there judgement clouded by either being close to one rider or simply disliking the other

I couldnt and still cant stand Gary Havelock......but he was a deserving world champion in 1992...it was his year he dominated with only Per Jonsson getting close....you cant take that away

 

[chunky]

6 hours ago, Gavan said:

Those saying Lee was a 'better' rider than Tai isnt up for debate....he isnt

Was Lee better than Tai to watch? Maybe....Was he more naturally talented? I believe so

I think people get there judgement clouded by either being close to one rider or simply disliking the other

I couldnt and still cant stand Gary Havelock......but he was a deserving world champion in 1992...it was his year he dominated with only Per Jonsson getting close....you cant take that away

 

It is crazy. Most of us who reckon Tai is better are happy to concede that Lee was more talented. Those who reckon Lee was better will concede nothing, because they "know".

I stated that Lee was perhaps the most talented rider in speedway history, yet I was accused of considering him an "also-ran"! See the difference in the two camps?

It's true that people can't (or won't) differentiate between BEST and FAVOURITE, or simply want to rewrite the dictionary...

Steve

Edited August 13, 2019 by chunky

[DC2]

5 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Exactly! Which is why saying I saw them both ride is utterly worthless.

We can only compare on achievements in their respective eras and in that Lee doesn't have a leg to stand on.

 

You can compare them on bike handling skills too and ability to gate and to overtake and to ride different tracks. Achievements is not the only criterion for comparison.

For me, Darcy Ward is the most naturally gifted rider I have seen but his achievements don’t amount to much.

[Midland Red]

21 minutes ago, chunky said:

It is crazy. Most of us who reckon Tai is better are happy to concede that Lee was more talented. Those who reckon Lee was better will concede nothing, because they "know".

That’s misleading at the very least.  I reckon / My opinion is that Lee was a better rider than Woffinden, but I concede that Woffinden has been far more successful.  Not sure where the “know” comes from.

As I said, I’m comfortable with my opinion - and that’s all it is, an opinion.  I have no axe to grind with Woffinden, and have no reason to favour a Kings Lynn rider (Lee). 

Pick any two riders, and anyone can have an opinion as to which one was the better rider - but the choices will not all be the same!  Because that’s what opinions are about.  

Comparing achievements, records, etc - those are facts, and in the main indisputable.

Having seen Woffinden on the mike last night for the first time (I’ve missed his other recent appearances), I will say how impressed I was. Clearly an area in which he is better than Lee, in my opinion.

[PHILIPRISING]

SURPRISED Peter Collins hasn't figured more prominently in this conversation... supreme natural talent, fabulous to watch, passed other top riders for fun. Like many others, the GP system would have suited him. How he would have loved the Wroclaw track of two weeks ago.

[fatface]

I could sort of understand the questioning of Tai Woffinden if he was just a gate and go rider. Thing is though, he is a rare rider who has the full toolkit as his disposal...and proves it time and time again. Yes, he can gate. But is brilliant from the back, is uber fast, highly professional, able to consistently perform under the highest pressure and has longevity. And you can't say that for many riders in the sport's history...not even several world champions.

What more do you want from a World Champion?

I think it boils down to change. People don't like it. So when a rider comes along who challenges their cast-in-stone views over speedway gods of the past, some people find it difficult to accept. Doubly so when he's young, tattooed, opinionated and talks with a funny accent.

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by falcace