SON finals Togliatti Sat/Sun July 20th/21st Live on BT Sport

[Grachan]

Just now, PHILIPRISING said:

SON has its pros and cons (not least the title) but as ever we in the UK need to appreciate that the views of fans in many other countries, many of which have greater speedway audiences than we do, have contrasting views.

Ah yes. The title. In a year where there seem to be World Cups going on in many sports and gaining them a degree of popularity in the process we get something called "Speedway of Nations". Is it a World Championship? Is it an open meeting? How can we tell?

[OveFundinFan]

3 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

SON has its pros and cons (not least the title) but as ever we in the UK need to appreciate that the views of fans in many other countries, many of which have greater speedway audiences than we do, have contrasting views.

and where does processional riding with hardly any overtakes over 44 heats stand in the likes/dislikes of supporters in other countries?????  The riders seem to take what comes, even Tai in the studio didnt overly criticise the track. Are riders under some "hold", like if they speak their mind they would be blanked by the "higher authorities". If the wife or I dished out bland food with no flavour, no colour we would soon be changing the "menu", but the powers that be seem to want to take the worlds best speedway riders to unappetising tracks time and time again, and dish up totally inept referees as well.  Dont supporters who pay lots of money, not only on admission, but travel and accommodation, subscription to TV packages etc deserve much better?? IMO they do indeed. 

[bigcatdiary]

As a viewing spectacle I thought it was poor the racing was dreadful and it was mainly processional.

If the two day final is kept it’s clear you need to add another reserve rider to avoid injury problems.

I can understand why the organisers want to ensure the champions win it in the last race but surely a 21 heat qualifier with two semis and a final for the top four would be better, scoring 4,3,2,0 would help as well.

[PHILIPRISING]

14 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Ah yes. The title. In a year where there seem to be World Cups going on in many sports and gaining them a degree of popularity in the process we get something called "Speedway of Nations". Is it a World Championship? Is it an open meeting? How can we tell?

EXACTLY...

[Grand Central]

13 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

SON has its pros and cons (not least the title) but as ever we in the UK need to appreciate that the views of fans in many other countries, many of which have greater speedway audiences than we do, have contrasting views.

I notice such a conciliatory tone that you adopt whenever this comes up. Very shy to criticise the international forces at work in creating this hybrid abhorrence of a competition.

Such a contrast to your approach to Brexit on another thread.

I'd leave the SON without a deal like a shot. Shouting sod off Armando. 

 

[PHILIPRISING]

4 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

and where does processional riding with hardly any overtakes over 44 heats stand in the likes/dislikes of supporters in other countries?????  The riders seem to take what comes, even Tai in the studio didnt overly criticise the track. Are riders under some "hold", like if they speak their mind they would be blanked by the "higher authorities". If the wife or I dished out bland food with no flavour, no colour we would soon be changing the "menu", but the powers that be seem to want to take the worlds best speedway riders to unappetising tracks time and time again, and dish up totally inept referees as well.  Dont supporters who pay lots of money, not only on admission, but travel and accommodation, subscription to TV packages etc deserve much better?? IMO they do indeed. 

THAT is a completely different argument, most if not all I agree with. Would an old style four-man team WC been any different in terms of racing at Togliatti?

[PHILIPRISING]

1 minute ago, Grand Central said:

I notice such a conciliatory tone that you adopt whenever this comes up. Very shy to criticise the international forces at work in creating this hybrid abhorrence of a competition.

Such a contrast to your approach to Brexit on another thread.

I'd leave the SON without a deal like a shot. Shouting sod off Armando. 

 

WHAT on earth has the SON got to do with Brexit? This isn't all about Armando, who in my experience going back over 50 years is by far the best boss of the CCP at the FIM there has ever been. He is passionate (Italian after all) about speedway and works tirelessly. The FIM (Armando's superiors) are keen to take all sorts of events, including the SGP, to new countries (France for the SGP for example) but are not prepared to provide any real finance. They talk about Spain, a country in love with motorsports, but would an SGP work there with no Spanish riders and a hard core of fans. 

The fact is that countries like Denmark and Sweden were no longer interested in staging WC finals. Poland probably the only country that was. You can only play the cards you are dealt with.

[chunky]

8 hours ago, chunky said:

Of course, speedway was so much better in the old days, particularly in the World Championship.  Sixteen qualifying meetings with only the winner from each making it to the World Final!

I see you are confused, Midland Red?

The poster was claiming that the cricket World Cup should qualify only two group winners directly to the final, and that the Champions League should include only "champions". Therefore, I wonder what he thought of the old speedway World Championship system, where you could scrape through each of the qualifying rounds (in as low as 11th spot), and then win a World Final?

Of course, those were the "good old days" when it was possible to become World Champion without winning a race...

Steve

[Fromafar]

Anybody who watches Cook regular will see the Cook has a very upright style and tends to ride mid track/ outside.He very seldom pulls lockers and turns back sharply he is not a very technical rider but he can be fast. Imo .Obviously his crash effected him for the 2 days though.

[IainB]

15 hours ago, Phil The Ace said:

If anyone expected anything other than last then you need to give your head a wobble. 

 

We have 1 world class rider. (Injured)

1 great rider in Lambert (injured)

1 decent UK rider and good at this track (injured)

 

Andb1 has been. Great servent to team GB but shouldnt be anywhere near the squad. 

 

We need to forget this year and learn from it

Come on, that's all very easy to say after the event, even without Tai and a fit Cook, Lambert... and Bomber you'd surely expect to beat the Germans and be giving Sweden and Australia a run for their money, along with Germany. GB probably had the most equal "Pair(s)" out there and I would have expected a number of 3-3's and the odd 4-2

15 hours ago, mikebv said:

That will go down well in Poland I am sure..

The Team Manager got his excuses in early...

Yet again, Poland prove themselves to be the biggest chokers in world speedway, just 3 world cups in 20 years outside of their home country and 1 world individual champion in the last I don't know how many years

14 hours ago, oleoleole said:

I suppose congratulations to Russia but what an awful weekend of speedway.

If it's held at the same track next year I won't be wasting two weekend afternoons watching it.......

When the SWC first started, nearly 20 years ago now, it was such a refreshing change, a festival of speedway, there's so much wrong with the SoN as a "Team" event I'm not even going to get started on it, fine run it as a pairs event but they really do need to get back to a SWC type event, no matter who keeps winning it, maybe just don't keep having it in Poland every year

14 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

WASN'T their best night, I agree, but commentating from a studio thousands of miles away will always be an issue.

But they kept saying they were there, commenting on the weather "here" and the atmosphere "here"... are you suggesting they were lying?

14 hours ago, Fromafar said:

It just highlighted what most fans know in World Speedway terms at Top Level we are a long way behind, and it will be a number of years before we catch up ( if ever).

I've got to disagree with that, you can't ignore last years Silver medal. I think most teams proved that they have an elite number 1, as we do and a capable number 2, as we do. Any team losing their elite rider would have been struggling, Holder for Doyle? Lindback for Lindgren, Bjerre for Madsen, G Laguta for Emil, Zmarzlik. I think what made us look so bad was Bomber's performance, who in all honesty, who, before the event would have known he'd have been so so so so far off the pace? Personally I would have gone for Danny King in that spot based on both their starting abilities

Edited July 22, 2019 by iainb

[chunky]

53 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

CAN you imagine a GB squad of five riders in an old-style World Cup over the weekend without Tai...

And Lambert and Cook injured...

We would have made Czechoslovakia's 1970 WTC score look mighty impressive...

[HGould]

guys who we would class as "journeymen" riders like Ljung and Huckenbeck were as impressive as and more impressive than some bigger names like Laguta ; Janowski; Fricke; Lindgren; Iversen; who were disappointing for various reasons. 

We have no depth beyond Woffinden and Lambert at that level. 

The "next generation" are 2-3 years away from maturing IF they are going to mature as some are struggling to make an impact in UK let alone abroad. 

Bewley has come back very well from horror injuries but may be seen to better light next season.

Patience is needed!

[chunky]

4 minutes ago, iainb said:

1)Come on, that's all very easy to say after the event, even without Tai and a fit Cook, Lambert... and Bomber you'd surely expect to beat the Germans and be giving Sweden and Australia a run for their money

 

2)I've got to disagree with that, you can't ignore last years Silver medal.

 

3)I think what made us look so bad was Bomber's performance, who in all honesty, before the event would have known he'd have been so so so so far off the pace?

1) Absolutely not. This is 2019, not 1980, and we simply don't have anyone close to the quality of Woffinden and Lambert. Oh yes, Cook is next in line, and guess what, he was injured too! You can't just think we should be beating everyone because we are British, or because Germany used to be crap. Remember, it would have been even worse had they had Smolinski instead of Riss...

2) As proud as we were of Lambert, last year's silver was pretty much courtesy of one of the greatest INDIVIDUAL performances in speedway history. That was no indication whatsoever of the strength of GB as a nation.

3) It is most unfair to say it was just down to Bomber's performance; we were missing Woffinden, a fit Lambert, and a fit Cook. As I said elsewhere, how many of the teams in attendance would have survived the loss of their top three riders?

[chunky]

3 minutes ago, HGould said:

guys who we would class as "journeymen" riders like Ljung and Huckenbeck were as impressive as and more impressive than some bigger names like Laguta ; Janowski; Fricke; Lindgren; Iversen; who were disappointing for various reasons. 

We have no depth beyond Woffinden and Lambert at that level. 

The "next generation" are 2-3 years away from maturing IF they are going to mature as some are struggling to make an impact in UK let alone abroad. 

Bewley has come back very well from horror injuries but may be seen to better light next season.

Patience is needed!

Not just patience; a closer look at reality. You hit several nails on the head there...

Steve

[Fromafar]

26 minutes ago, iainb said:

Come on, that's all very easy to say after the event, even without Tai and a fit Cook, Lambert... and Bomber you'd surely expect to beat the Germans and be giving Sweden and Australia a run for their money, along with Germany. GB probably had the most equal "Pair(s)" out there and I would have expected a number of 3-3's and the odd 4-2

Yet again, Poland prove themselves to be the biggest chokers in world speedway, just 3 world cups in 20 years outside of their home country and 1 world individual champion in the last I don't know how many years

When the SWC first started, nearly 20 years ago now, it was such a refreshing change, a festival of speedway, there's so much wrong with the SoN as a "Team" event I'm not even going to get started on it, fine run it as a pairs event but they really do need to get back to a SWC type event, no matter who keeps winning it, maybe just don't keep having it in Poland every year

But they kept saying they were there, commenting on the weather "here" and the atmosphere "here"... are you suggesting they were lying?

I've got to disagree with that, you can't ignore last years Silver medal. I think most teams proved that they have an elite number 1, as we do and a capable number 2, as we do. Any team losing their elite rider would have been struggling, Holder for Doyle? Lindback for Lindgren, Bjerre for Madsen, G Laguta for Emil, Zmarzlik. I think what made us look so bad was Bomber's performance, who in all honesty, who, before the event would have known he'd have been so so so so far off the pace? Personally I would have gone for Danny King in that spot based on both their starting abilities

Name the riders who will be competitive on World Stage in the next couple of years bar Woffy and Lambert.There is some young talent out there but they have along way to go as the U21 Team showed.

[mikebv]

9 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Name the riders who will be competitive on World Stage in the next couple of years bar Woffy and Lambert.There is some young talent out there but they have along way to go as the U21 Team showed.

As Tai said, beating riders in the UK doesn't make you a top rider..

The young lads have to go up against the more battle hard young Poles in particular more often..

These lads are facing enormous pressure to perform every time they go to a track so can handle far better the jump to the next level when their U21 reserve time finishes..

As we have seen ongoing for a good many years. Our lads can easily be feted by too many followers as "a future World Champion" when in reality they are just the best of a very ordinary domestic bunch..

Get them overseas at an early age and see if they sink or swim..

The likes of Drabik, Smektala, Kubera et al, all face that challenge every Sunday through the season...

 

[IainB]

41 minutes ago, chunky said:

1) Absolutely not. This is 2019, not 1980, and we simply don't have anyone close to the quality of Woffinden and Lambert. Oh yes, Cook is next in line, and guess what, he was injured too! You can't just think we should be beating everyone because we are British, or because Germany used to be crap. Remember, it would have been even worse had they had Smolinski instead of Riss...

2) As proud as we were of Lambert, last year's silver was pretty much courtesy of one of the greatest INDIVIDUAL performances in speedway history. That was no indication whatsoever of the strength of GB as a nation.

3) It is most unfair to say it was just down to Bomber's performance; we were missing Woffinden, a fit Lambert, and a fit Cook. As I said elsewhere, how many of the teams in attendance would have survived the loss of their top three riders?

1) I don't think we should be beating everyone because we are British, I see the quality of a fit Lambert and Cook and I think they should be beating the likes of Germany and challenging the non elite riders in the SoN field when fit... I was responding to "If anyone expected anything other than last then you need to give your head a wobble"... and if  Cook and Lambert had been fit we wouldn't have been so far adrift

2) Like Emil's performance over the weekend. Or Zmarzlik if the Poles had won

3)That's absolutely not what I said at all, what I said was Bomber's performance made GB's performance as a whole look a lot worse

33 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Name the riders who will be competitive on World Stage in the next couple of years bar Woffy and Lambert.There is some young talent out there but they have along way to go as the U21 Team showed.

As yet there is nobody and without a stronger domestic league or regular test matches there's unlikely to be. I found it very interesting listening to Jaimon Lidsey the other week on BT Sport where he said he came over to Europe and went straight to Poland and then came over to Britain to take 2 steps back to take 3 steps forward. Australia must also be worried that after Max Fricke there seems to be very little and I suggest that if Aussies keep coming over to ride in the British Leagues that they will also stagnate and not reach a higher level, it's no coincidence that GB, Australia and the USA are no longer serious players on the world stage, other than those riders that progressed from the UK when the league was a lot lot stronger than it is today

[Fromafar]

6 minutes ago, iainb said:

1) I don't think we should be beating everyone because we are British, I see the quality of a fit Lambert and Cook and I think they should be beating the likes of Germany and challenging the non elite riders in the SoN field when fit... I was responding to "If anyone expected anything other than last then you need to give your head a wobble"... and if  Cook and Lambert had been fit we wouldn't have been so far adrift

2) Like Emil's performance over the weekend. Or Zmarzlik if the Poles had won

3)That's absolutely not what I said at all, what I said was Bomber's performance made GB's performance as a whole look a lot worse

As yet there is nobody and without a stronger domestic league or regular test matches there's unlikely to be. I found it very interesting listening to Jaimon Lidsey the other week on BT Sport where he said he came over to Europe and went straight to Poland and then came over to Britain to take 2 steps back to take 3 steps forward. Australia must also be worried that after Max Fricke there seems to be very little and I suggest that if Aussies keep coming over to ride in the British Leagues that they will also stagnate and not reach a higher level, it's no coincidence that GB, Australia and the USA are no longer serious players on the world stage, other than those riders that progressed from the UK when the league was a lot lot stronger than it is today

The Aussies have a few more than GB.Fricke,Holder, Kurtz,Lindsay, Stewart,Gilmore,Thompson,Cook could all step up a notch IMO.They are already a step ahead.

[IainB]

2 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

The Aussies have a few more than GB.Fricke,Holder, Kurtz,Lindsay, Stewart,Gilmore,Thompson,Cook could all step up a notch IMO.They are already a step ahead.

The Aussies have Doyle and Holder, both brought up in the UK when the leagues were a lot stronger. Kurtz hasn't really kicked on in the last couple of years, the others that you mention remain to be seen what, if anything, they'll do, I don't see how they'll step up a notch as they're in exactly the same boat as GB, weak league and no test matches, the exception is Fricke. He does seem to have applied himself and although not quite there yet is approaching world class... IMO

[Fromafar]

10 minutes ago, iainb said:

The Aussies have Doyle and Holder, both brought up in the UK when the leagues were a lot stronger. Kurtz hasn't really kicked on in the last couple of years, the others that you mention remain to be seen what, if anything, they'll do, I don't see how they'll step up a notch as they're in exactly the same boat as GB, weak league and no test matches, the exception is Fricke. He does seem to have applied himself and although not quite there yet is approaching world class... IMO

Lindsay and Gilmore are already in Poland, I’m sure Cook will be there soon.Interesting.Can the  Young Brits get into Poland or Sweden is the question.