orion Posted June 16, 2019 Report Share Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, mikebv said: You are probably right... I can actually see Poland and Sweden adopting the system any day now now they have seen how succesful it can be... Correct ..the moment we stop using guests will be as successful as Poland and Sweden you can see it now fans who have stopped going will flock back once the news get's out . Clubs will have to take the phones off the hooks as the sponsors phone them up the sport will be awash with money and just like Poland with 20 ,000 purpose built staduims wlll arise just because we don't use guests Edited June 16, 2019 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted June 16, 2019 Report Share Posted June 16, 2019 The use of guests only bothers current fans nobody new will give speedway a miss because of them and nor does mainstream media. In fact I would make the use of guests a positive when advertising the sport. How many sports are so dangerous that there aren't enough competitors to go round? Telling everyone just how dangerous speedway really is would be the best way to attract newcomers, especially the younger generation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 16, 2019 Report Share Posted June 16, 2019 2 hours ago, mikebv said: The leagues might have had results shown in most newspapers but, unlike today, they didn't come under any scrutiny as to how those points shown were delivered. BECAUSE PEOPLE WEREN'T WORRIED ABOUT IT! In the old days, there was no desire for "credibility". Or political correctness, equality, diversity, or whatever. I'm not just talking about speedway either... You either enjoyed something or you didnt. If you did, great. If you didn't, you went and did something else. If the latter, you didn't feel compelled to justify your opinions, or to ridicule those who didn't share your views. Look at the BSF... There are multitudes queuing up to tell you how bad, stupid, and worthless sports like football and F1 are. There are endless comparisons and false accusations in an effort to justify that opinion. Why? Speedway is - and always was - my favorite sport. I have have a lengthy and successful career in darts, but as much as I love darts, speedway was still Number One. I am a footy fan. I am an F1 fan. So? Does that make me stupid or inferior? As far as speedway, why is it that difficult to watch, and enjoy? Sure, it doesn't matter what you enjoy, there will always be things that you think are bad or stupid. Oh well... I went to speedway because : 1) I loved watching the racing. 2) I had a passion for my Wimbledon team. Is that not enough? Some nights, the fare was poor. And? Sh!t happens... Was rider control "credible"? Of course not. Did it drive the fans away? And you can't keep claiming that PC put "thousands" on the gate at Hyde Rd. Great rider, and great to watch. BUT, fans flocked to Hyde Rd in their thousands before PC. Fans flocked to speedway in their thousands before television coverage. Fans flocked to speedway in their thousands when we had guest riders in the 60's and 70's. There are many reasons why speedway - certainly British speedway - isn't as popular as it once was, but not every reason is speedway-related. More importantly, it has little or nothing to do with credibility... Steve 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icicle Posted June 16, 2019 Report Share Posted June 16, 2019 Sadly I feel if one was a get some brainless "celebrity" to gush how "wonderful" Speedway is, the crowds would double..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rabbit Posted June 16, 2019 Report Share Posted June 16, 2019 Having read that speedway has always used guests I decided to check up how many the club I supported used in their formative years fifty years or so ago because, for the life of me I could only remember them booking a guest once (for a #1 riding in a World Championship round) and permission to use him was withdrawn when the opposition complained. Anyway, they used one guest all season in their first year, none at all the second year then back to one the third year. They averaged less than two a year for the twenty years I've looked back at. So yes, guests have always been used but not in the sheer numbers they are now, culminating in the stupid situation of a 'team' turning up with five guests, one of their own riders and utilising R/R for the seventh team member. Maybe it's the number of guests being used these days that's putting some off rather than guests per se. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 16, 2019 Report Share Posted June 16, 2019 15 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: Maybe it's the number of guests being used these days that's putting some off rather than guests per se. I will admit that the use of guests now is ridiculous. Thing is, back in the day, riders riding in Britain weren't usually riding elsewhere several times a week. Of course, there is the situation of "priority", particularly when matches are rescheduled, but also, riders are getting injured more because they are riding more. Back in the day, the guest facility was used for heat leaders only (and only in certain circumstances) and I think it should still be that way. There is no reason at all to need a guest for a four-point second string... I know people complain about doubling-up, but of course, many BL teams had an association with an NL team. You would often get two or three riders who were part of your "squad", so you didn't have any need for guests for second-strings and reserves. Now, it really seems a case of the tail wagging the dog... Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrub Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 Though I have always disliked the guest system it never stopped me from going, it did effect the credibility of the league, even as a ten year old I could work out it wasn't right but the thrill of the racing over-rided that. Plenty of people within the sport made a lot of noise in the 70's concerning guests, but nothing was done as it was the easiest way of covering for missing riders. However Ipswich, one of, if not the most successful sides of the 1970's achieved all their trophies and titles despite their total refusal to use guests, showing that it could be done. Nowadays, older, less easily impressed and more cynical than that ten year old I can hardly be bothered to drag myself along to watch. As Chunky said there are many reasons for the decline in support. For my part I could point to the proliferation of guests, the flexible rulebook, the poor standard of racing at Ipswich these days, Chapman hijacking the club and other gripes for my non-attendance but in reality it is because I am older and more cynical and can see that they are racing for a title that's not worth winning in a league that lacks any credibility. I still get a buzz from watching great racing but the team element of speedway in the UK, to me, is pointless. Only took me 40 odd years to work that out, mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Shrub said: the poor standard of racing at Ipswich these days the team element of speedway in the UK, to me, is pointless Two very legitimate reasons to fall out of love with the sport. Of course, they were the main reasons I loved the sport. It was hard - very hard - losing my team, but I still love it as a neutral. Having said that, I can't deny that, had I still been attending as a "biased" team fan, I would certainly be disillusioned at the deterioration of the team aspect... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 Speedway for me these days is more of a social thing. It gets me out of the house for a few hours and i still enjoy going. I can take all the guests and the silly rules because i don't care enough to worry about such things. I can fully understand why people get upset at the way things are going for the sport. The problem is, it's the promoters play thing, and they are not going to let anyone join in their game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odds On Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 speedway is all but done, take Saturdays Grand Prix as an example, 16 of the best riders in the world(in theory), 24 races and arguably 20 of those races were pure rubbish, very little in terms of entertainment and excitement. I would say that 80-90% of speedway meetings see the first 25% of a meeting with no overtaking or excitement other than when a rider gets out of shape. It is also very noticeable that nowadays riders find it hard to control a bike if the track is anything other than a smooth and shale less.. Right now there aren't many people making money out of the sport, the top riders and engine tuners for sure but the vast majority of riders and promoters are doing their proverbials. Fans need to realise that in a matter of only a few years there will only be one league in the UK, as Clubs will sadly go to the wall and never return. Speedway is in the entertainment business,it needs to start entertaining to the wider audience than just the die hard speedway fan. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted June 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/15/2019 at 7:48 AM, waytogo28 said: I genuinely and sincerely don't believe that racing is better than ever and I really don't think that I am peering through rose-tinted spectacles. Over the last 20 years the percentage of Gate and Go - tapes to flag processions has risen dramatically. Now averaging 12 from 15 heats - if you are lucky, three decent races with passing or the possibility of doing so. In UK racing. As for Guests being called Stars or whatever, how does that avoid the feeling that Chris Harris ( for example ) pops up Here There and Everywhere while really riding for another supposedly rival team? Because many people won't know it's Harris just that it's a guest rider, that is the point, don't know, doesn't matter ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted June 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 16 hours ago, The White Knight said: You reckon? Read my post again, it doesn't say that .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted June 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 11 hours ago, mikebv said: Whilst 'guests are a necessary evil' (in Britain), then the sport (as a team concept) simply won't move forward, because it can't can it? Imagine Wroclaw using Dudek to replace the injured Woffy? ZG fans would lynch him should he score the points for Wroclaw that prevents ZG from qualifying for the play offs.. And Wroclaw fans would lynch him if he scored next to nothing and they didn't. .. In Poland it actually means something. To fans, media and (probably most importantly) the blue chip sponsors. And if they ran a guest system it wouldn't have anywhere near the same stature, nor mean so much.. I do though think that guests are here to stay as it's the 'easiest' way of running the sport and provides riders with extra earning potential... One rider once told me that 'guesting' was the cherry on the top of the icing on top of the cake... I think now for many riders it now just forms part of the cake, hence will carry on being part of the plan.. Poland have enough money to do what they like, enough strength in depth to cover for their number ones being injured, enough riders attracted to the money available in their league, we don't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted June 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 11 hours ago, mikebv said: The fact 'no one cared' is (sadly), probably the biggest clue as to the worth of the competitions... Unless it means something to win, then really, why bother? Believe it or not, it does!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 12 hours ago, orion said: So if say Jason Doyle is out injured you replaced him with a championship rider of 4.50 ? Yes & no, if Doyle was injured your team would look like this 1. Batchelor 7.76 2. Wajiknecht 4.08 3. Ellis 6.76 4. Jensen 4.51 5. Musielak 6.41 6. Perks 3.00 7. Guest 3.00 The team just gets moved around and any guests come in at reserve. I don't think it's right that straight swap guests should be used, I'm a firm believer that a result should be determined by the teams own rider's rather than a track specialist guest that actually performs better than the replaced rider. It gives the opportunity for other riders in the team to step up. Also gives another opportunity to an up and coming rider to make an impression. Especially at home that team should have enough to not get beaten if they ride to their potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 23 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: Yes & no, if Doyle was injured your team would look like this 1. Batchelor 7.76 2. Wajiknecht 4.08 3. Ellis 6.76 4. Jensen 4.51 5. Musielak 6.41 6. Perks 3.00 7. Guest 3.00 The team just gets moved around and any guests come in at reserve. I don't think it's right that straight swap guests should be used, I'm a firm believer that a result should be determined by the teams own rider's rather than a track specialist guest that actually performs better than the replaced rider. It gives the opportunity for other riders in the team to step up. Also gives another opportunity to an up and coming rider to make an impression. Especially at home that team should have enough to not get beaten if they ride to their potential. So if they were away not only were they be certain to lose the match the crowd would suffer as well .. The above example is why will still have guests because as nearly every idea lacks any idea about the money side of the sport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: Yes & no, if Doyle was injured your team would look like this 1. Batchelor 7.76 2. Wajiknecht 4.08 3. Ellis 6.76 4. Jensen 4.51 5. Musielak 6.41 6. Perks 3.00 7. Guest 3.00 The team just gets moved around and any guests come in at reserve. I don't think it's right that straight swap guests should be used, I'm a firm believer that a result should be determined by the teams own rider's rather than a track specialist guest that actually performs better than the replaced rider. It gives the opportunity for other riders in the team to step up. Also gives another opportunity to an up and coming rider to make an impression. Especially at home that team should have enough to not get beaten if they ride to their potential. Can see the logic and it does take away the tactical advantage to be gained by having a missing rider who gets replaced by someone who maybe is better at certain tracks.. For me, in this scenario, if no Doyle then RR should be used meaning Batchelor, Eliis, and Musielak (or any rider Rosco wants), should be able to cover all Doyle rides up to each having seven rides max. eg Rosco may want Batchelor to take his own four rides and three of Doyle with Ellis taking his own four and one of Doyles.. They can then have a Number 8 on standby, a 3 point man as you describe, to come in should anyone else get injured during the meeting, or even take some reserve rides if Rosco wants him to.. As the 'genuine No1' is seemingly becoming a thing of the past in the UK then there should be a lessening need for guests as the 'big hitter', who used to score a big portion of a teams points, no longer impacts meetings in the same way.. Using RR would not only provide credibility but it would also give the riders within the team more opportunities to earn more money, rather than have a guest come in and hoover up some cash, and it would maintain both team spirit and team identity.. Edited June 17, 2019 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cheese Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 I've always felt that 'guests' is the wrong word to use and they should be classed as something like an 'injury loan' or 'meeting loan'. As long as there's not 3 or 4 riders missing I don't see it as a huge problem, would think that a simple explanation to a new viewer is enough for them to understand why it happens and accept that at times it's necessary 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted June 24, 2019 Report Share Posted June 24, 2019 I think you'll find the National League of the late 80s ran with a no guest policy up until the league merger with the BL at the end of 1990. So it can be done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted June 24, 2019 Report Share Posted June 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Spl77 said: I think you'll find the National League of the late 80s ran with a no guest policy up until the league merger with the BL at the end of 1990. So it can be done. Indeed the British League Division Two/New National League and later National League ran for many years without having to resort to using guests. There were a few exceptions and if I recall riders on World Championship duties could be replaced but I can't remember the specifics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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