BWitcher Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, chunky said: And at least another 30 from the 1970's... Steve Is he genuinely in the top 50 all time British riders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 Just about I'd say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 26 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Is he genuinely in the top 50 all time British riders? Not according to some of the experts on the BSF, apparently... And we haven't even included the 50's and 60's yet!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 28 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Is he genuinely in the top 50 all time British riders? No .don't you remember the British Finals of the 70's and 80's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 29 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Is he genuinely in the top 50 all time British riders? He needs to win at least 10 more World Championships to break into the top 50. Still, it is so easy to win the GP series - but only for Woffinden, and not everybody else... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, orion said: No .don't you remember the British Finals of the 70's and 80's Oh, that's right! You needed an 11-point average to even think about being good enough to qualify for a British Final... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 51 minutes ago, chunky said: Oh, that's right! You needed an 11-point average to even think about being good enough to qualify for a British Final... Oh come on Chunky. You talk some good stuff but averages is silly. Averages and winning races is no way to judge a rider, nor titles for that matter. I'm surprised you're basing your judgement on such things. Even if you did have you ever seen Tai Woffinden win a world title live, in the stadium? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 3 hours ago, 1 valve said: At doing what? Don't get me wrong 1 valve, Tai is good but he hasn't got anyone to beat. So much easier now, just turn up, win, ride round, don't have to win many races, pressure? No, closed shop, rivals not around. In the 70's did you see a rider lose a race before a World Final? So tough the competition, Betts. Look at it, Ashby. Legends. Pusey, warrior. Would he lose a race today, don't think so. Grand Prix, back in the day, wow, Mauger would have won 20+, Olsen too, Collins 10... could you see them losing a race, wow, competition, Les Collins, grand prix, would he get beat, be honest? Carter, be world champ 5 times over in a GP, tough, Sanders! Different class. Joe Owen, different level, Think 1 valve. Were you there? 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byker Biker Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: Don't get me wrong 1 valve, Tai is good but he hasn't got anyone to beat. So much easier now, just turn up, win, ride round, don't have to win many races, pressure? No, closed shop, rivals not around. In the 70's did you see a rider lose a race before a World Final? So tough the competition, Betts. Look at it, Ashby. Legends. Pusey, warrior. Would he lose a race today, don't think so. Grand Prix, back in the day, wow, Mauger would have won 20+, Olsen too, Collins 10... could you see them losing a race, wow, competition, Les Collins, grand prix, would he get beat, be honest? Carter, be world champ 5 times over in a GP, tough, Sanders! Different class. Joe Owen, different level, Think 1 valve. Were you there? So pleased you're a Woffy fan, he'd be fckued without you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 2 hours ago, BWitcher said: Even if you did have you ever seen Tai Woffinden win a world title live, in the stadium? Iit's obviously the only way I will get to see it, because I'm not allowed to watch him on the live stream specifically provided for people like me by the organisers... Is it still illegal and immoral if I just have it on in the background??? Steve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: Don't get me wrong 1 valve, Tai is good but he hasn't got anyone to beat. So much easier now, just turn up, win, ride round, don't have to win many races, pressure? No, closed shop, rivals not around. In the 70's did you see a rider lose a race before a World Final? So tough the competition, Betts. Look at it, Ashby. Legends. Pusey, warrior. Would he lose a race today, don't think so. Grand Prix, back in the day, wow, Mauger would have won 20+, Olsen too, Collins 10... could you see them losing a race, wow, competition, Les Collins, grand prix, would he get beat, be honest? Carter, be world champ 5 times over in a GP, tough, Sanders! Different class. Joe Owen, different level, Think 1 valve. Were you there? Yes I was. Saw every world final from 1975 live. Yes including trips to Poland when Ivan won his 6th title. Today Poland has replaced UK as the home of the most competitive speedway. And different rules apply as well as formats tracks & equipment Do I think Woffy would have been as good as Ole or Ivan. Briggs or Ove? Back then? Frankly I don’t know. Similarly I don’t know how they would have coped with today’s competition. But I am pretty sure Tai would have given them a real run for their money because he actually is “that good” and do too are a number of today’s riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, 1 valve said: But I am pretty sure Tai would have given them a real run for their money because he actually is “that good” and do too are a number of today’s riders. Really? I read on here that he wouldn't have been good enough to even get in the 1972 Belle Vue team... Steve Edited April 16, 2019 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 There is no doubt Tai is very good, how good is difficult to determine. Why? For one, the money is so good in top class speedway today there is no real need to push yourself in every race. With 3 meetings a week todays racers will have ample opportunity to earn good money - though the professionalism is higher then it ever has been I think. With regard to world championship meetings, pre the gp system every world champ qualifier was tough and just one engine failure could mean you out for a year. With the gp's, though its never good to have a bad meeting, its not the end of the world either. So in some respect it could be said its easier to be a world champ today then say 30+ years ago, though I doubt the riders think so. The meeting that started this thread off, and particularly that race 7 with Tai v Nicki (I not watched the others)..... nothing special to me, just Tai hunting down Nicki, winding it up on the outside and eventually passing on the run to the flag. Notice Tai never really put himself close to Nicki, which was clever of him cause you never know what Nicki is going to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said: There is no doubt Tai is very good, how good is difficult to determine. Why? For one, the money is so good in top class speedway today there is no real need to push yourself in every race. With 3 meetings a week todays racers will have ample opportunity to earn good money - though the professionalism is higher then it ever has been I think. With regard to world championship meetings, pre the gp system every world champ qualifier was tough and just one engine failure could mean you out for a year. With the gp's, though its never good to have a bad meeting, its not the end of the world either. So in some respect it could be said its easier to be a world champ today then say 30+ years ago, though I doubt the riders think so. The meeting that started this thread off, and particularly that race 7 with Tai v Nicki (I not watched the others)..... nothing special to me, just Tai hunting down Nicki, winding it up on the outside and eventually passing on the run to the flag. Notice Tai never really put himself close to Nicki, which was clever of him cause you never know what Nicki is going to do. No need for the parody anymore folks! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said: So in some respect it could be said its easier to be a world champ today then say 30+ years ago, though I doubt the riders think so. EVERY rider in the GP is riding under the same rules and conditions, so in that respect, it is no easier and no more difficult. It is the same for everyone. It was a lot easier to become World Champion on the old days, and was actually easier for some than for others. Back in the day, depending on what nationality you were, you could become World Champion from just three or four meetings. As I mentioned a while back, how many meetings did Muller ride in 83? Or Szczakiel ten years earlier? Olsen was actually in a similar situation at least once, and in only two of those meetings (I-C Final and World Final) was he facing any real competition. Today, each rider has to face the majority of the world's best riders EVERY TIME! One good/lucky meeting just ain't gonna cut it... So, looking at it like that, it is a lot tougher to become World Champion today... Steve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Byker Biker said: So pleased you're a Woffy fan, he'd be fckued without you! Eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, chunky said: EVERY rider in the GP is riding under the same rules and conditions, so in that respect, it is no easier and no more difficult. It is the same for everyone. It was a lot easier to become World Champion on the old days, and was actually easier for some than for others. Back in the day, depending on what nationality you were, you could become World Champion from just three or four meetings. As I mentioned a while back, how many meetings did Muller ride in 83? Or Szczakiel ten years earlier? Olsen was actually in a similar situation at least once, and in only two of those meetings (I-C Final and World Final) was he facing any real competition. Today, each rider has to face the majority of the world's best riders EVERY TIME! One good/lucky meeting just ain't gonna cut it... So, looking at it like that, it is a lot tougher to become World Champion today... Steve The world championship today is a closed shop and only so many riders can take part in it Possibly about 40. Going back to the early 1950's it was open to all riders which is not the case today.I remember one year there was 243 entries and that was in the UK alone. Under today's system a rider like Jack Young who was a 2nd division rider became world champion and under today's system would not be allowed entry It.s a shame that the GP riders today are being paid a pittance for the skills and any profits earnt from the GP's does not come back to the grass roots of Speedway. I wonder who sold Speedway down the drain Edited April 16, 2019 by mickthemuppet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountyGround Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, mickthemuppet said: The world championship today is a closed shop and only so many riders can take part in it Possibly about 40. Going back to the early 1950's it was open to all fiders which is not the case today.I remember one year there was 243 entries and that was in the UK alone. Under today's system a rider like Jack Young who was a 2nd division rider became world champion as he would not be allowed entry Looking @ different times & scenarios, but what I can tell you is that the person who I (& many others) considered the most knowledgeable & intelligent person in speedway rated Jack Young as the greatest rider ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 1 hour ago, CountyGround said: Looking @ different times & scenarios, but what I can tell you is that the person who I (& many others) considered the most knowledgeable & intelligent person in speedway rated Jack Young as the greatest rider ever. That's nice for him, what qualifies him as the most 'knowledgeable and intelligent' person in speedway out of interest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 5 hours ago, BWitcher said: No need for the parody anymore folks! You have been obviously too convincing.... Meaning some must agree.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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