steve roberts Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: Yes you do and it absolutely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. That's how all riders are judged. When riders win the majority of their races they are considered great riders. The less they win, the less great they are considered. I'd love to hear how you and Steve Roberts 'judge' riders if it's not based on how often they win. Strangely you've never listed any riders whom you classed as 'world class' who didn't do the exact thing which you say you don't judge riders on... ...seeing that you've raised my name (by presumably checking on those who register 'likes') it's been covered many times elsewhere on other threads on how I 'judge' riders great or otherwise depending upon the criteria over the months and years on the BSF. Indeed you only need to consult 'The Greatest/Favourites Lists' threads, for example, to see some of my comments and/or observations regarding riders if you so wish to help clarify any misunderstanding and/or confusion that you may have. Edited February 15, 2019 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 33 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Yes you do and it absolutely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. That's how all riders are judged. When riders win the majority of their races they are considered great riders. The less they win, the less great they are considered. I'd love to hear how you and Steve Roberts 'judge' riders if it's not based on how often they win. Strangely you've never listed any riders whom you classed as 'world class' who didn't do the exact thing which you say you don't judge riders on... Looking back over old programmes it is surprising the number of riders that my memory tells me were very good weren’t actually all that consistent, it’s just that I have been judging them on the basis of a few great races I remember and one tends to forget the ones they don’t do so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 48 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Yes you do and it absolutely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. That's how all riders are judged. When riders win the majority of their races they are considered great riders. The less they win, the less great they are considered. I'd love to hear how you and Steve Roberts 'judge' riders if it's not based on how often they win. Strangely you've never listed any riders whom you classed as 'world class' who didn't do the exact thing which you say you don't judge riders on... My experience Witcher i never really went on averages and reputation more on what i felt individually.Me and you have differed on this subject endlessly but i know your points are good and they could well be right.My take on things was that in yesteryear you really looked forward to a classy no 1 being in opposition often you might only see him once a year and maybe another individual meeting if you are lucky.Steve Roberts see Nielsen in his prime everyweek i did 84/87 so he knows more about Hans than me or anyone at Oxford.I don't disagree with you Witcher also your input on Ermolenko ( like Steve you know Sam's career) is interesting you see him for a long period and you are really qualified to comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 44 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: My experience Witcher i never really went on averages and reputation more on what i felt individually.Me and you have differed on this subject endlessly but i know your points are good and they could well be right.My take on things was that in yesteryear you really looked forward to a classy no 1 being in opposition often you might only see him once a year and maybe another individual meeting if you are lucky.Steve Roberts see Nielsen in his prime everyweek i did 84/87 so he knows more about Hans than me or anyone at Oxford.I don't disagree with you Witcher also your input on Ermolenko ( like Steve you know Sam's career) is interesting you see him for a long period and you are really qualified to comment. Always irritated me that "Rebel With A Cause' Garry Middleton often had the beating of Briggo but encountered problems when up against Martin Ashby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 54 minutes ago, steve roberts said: Always irritated me that "Rebel With A Cause' Garry Middleton often had the beating of Briggo but encountered problems when up against Martin Ashby! I remember him losing his rag after being excluded from a race at West Ham, and leaving his bike across the track. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said: My experience Witcher i never really went on averages and reputation more on what i felt individually.Me and you have differed on this subject endlessly but i know your points are good and they could well be right.My take on things was that in yesteryear you really looked forward to a classy no 1 being in opposition often you might only see him once a year and maybe another individual meeting if you are lucky.Steve Roberts see Nielsen in his prime everyweek i did 84/87 so he knows more about Hans than me or anyone at Oxford.I don't disagree with you Witcher also your input on Ermolenko ( like Steve you know Sam's career) is interesting you see him for a long period and you are really qualified to comment. Averages is irrelevant. The rest of your post is my entire point! That's entirely due to a large league. A smaller league you're seeing the riders much more often, and they are beating each other more often.. it's simply natural they don't have that mystique about them as you're seeing them lose a lot more regularly. Remember, the real 'top' boys will still be the top boys.. but the second and third heat leaders won't appear as good. Another way of putting it.. a fan just watching GP racing would think Craig Cook and Chris Harris are garbage.. a fan watching Craig Cook for Edinburgh over the years thinks he's brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 2 hours ago, steve roberts said: ...seeing that you've raised my name (by presumably checking on those who register 'likes') it's been covered many times elsewhere on other threads on how I 'judge' riders great or otherwise depending upon the criteria over the months and years on the BSF. Indeed you only need to consult 'The Greatest/Favourites Lists' threads, for example, to see some of my comments and/or observations regarding riders if you so wish to help clarify any misunderstanding and/or confusion that you may have. You judge riders by how many races they win. End of story. Anyone who tries to claim differently is talking absolute nonsense. Now you can apply different criteria and importance to particular races or events but the simple reality is, the more you see a rider win, the better you will naturally think they are. Nowhere is there someone claiming a rider was brilliant who comes last every race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: You judge riders by how many races they win. End of story. Anyone who tries to claim differently is talking absolute nonsense. Now you can apply different criteria and importance to particular races or events but the simple reality is, the more you see a rider win, the better you will naturally think they are. Nowhere is there someone claiming a rider was brilliant who comes last every race. I can honestly say that I haven't a clue what you are going on about and why you think I've made such judgements and/or quotes on other threads regarding same. End of. judge' riders if it's not ba.textClipping Edited February 15, 2019 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 2 hours ago, steve roberts said: I can honestly say that I haven't a clue what you are going on about and why you think I've made such judgements and/or quotes on other threads regarding same. End of. judge' riders if it's not ba.textClipping Every time Sidney claims he doesn't judge riders by how many races they win you 'like' his posts. Every time Sidney refuses to accept that the size of the league dictates how many heat leaders there are you 'like' his post. It's not a difficult concept. I've for some time been against the merging of leagues but we are past the point of salvation now for a top flight, or indeed any level of league it seems. Perhaps the only way out of this is to go with a big league, create more heat leaders, create more 'top guys' who don't lose very often and generate excitement when teams visit with a No 1 who doesn't get beat often and you will only get to see at your track once that season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: Every time Sidney claims he doesn't judge riders by how many races they win you 'like' his posts. Every time Sidney refuses to accept that the size of the league dictates how many heat leaders there are you 'like' his post. It's not a difficult concept. I've for some time been against the merging of leagues but we are past the point of salvation now for a top flight, or indeed any level of league it seems. Perhaps the only way out of this is to go with a big league, create more heat leaders, create more 'top guys' who don't lose very often and generate excitement when teams visit with a No 1 who doesn't get beat often and you will only get to see at your track once that season. Oh dear...you do have a fixation with people registering 'likes'. Because one may register a 'like' it doesn't necessarily mean one agrees with all of the statement made...perhaps just one part of same and it doesn't always require or justify a counter statement to clarify same. Many on here apparently do the same when registering a 'like' on some subject or other and if one reads any given response, if indeed forthcoming, often offers clarification. Infact some register a 'like' and then proceed to completely disagree with the post! In a nutshell one shouldn't read too much into a registered 'like'...it can mean one of many things. As regards the forming of one league I can see the advantages to this but as I've stated elsewhere it would require the full co-operation of all participating promoters and as history has proven many times in the past this has sometimes proved difficult although 1965 did prove to be a turning point and saviour of the sport when the National and Provincial Leagues were merged. Edited February 16, 2019 by steve roberts 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 15 minutes ago, steve roberts said: As regards the forming of one league I can see the advantages to this but as I've stated elsewhere it would require the full co-operation of all participating promoters and as history has proven many times in the past this has sometimes proved difficult although 1965 did prove to be a turning point and saviour of the sport when the National and Provincial Leagues were merged. Agreed.. and that's why it's never going to happen or work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 4 hours ago, BWitcher said: Agreed.. and that's why it's never going to happen or work. Unless .... in 2020 Buster owns 4 or 5 "top" clubs and in 2021 owns the 6, 7 or 8 of them that make up the then creme de la creme ( enough to satisfy BT which seems to be his Holy Grail ). How does he find backers for his acquisitions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, waytogo28 said: Unless .... in 2020 Buster owns 4 or 5 "top" clubs and in 2021 owns the 6, 7 or 8 of them that make up the then creme de la creme ( enough to satisfy BT which seems to be his Holy Grail ). How does he find backers for his acquisitions? He may well only own 2 through 2019 and be back to only 1 for 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 11 hours ago, steve roberts said: I can honestly say that I haven't a clue what you are going on about and why you think I've made such judgements and/or quotes on other threads regarding same. End of. judge' riders if it's not ba.textClipping Did averages ever come into your way of thinking Steve? i can't quite get my head around that part of the discussion.Hans for example from 1977 he was a good rider until he broke his hoodoo to win his first title then he was a outstanding rider did averages influence that decision i think not He was .the best of his generation mainly because of his longevity, also i felt in yesteryear a lot of the teams had three heat leaders Ex)( Belle Vue Collins,SjostenPusey. Ipswich Louis, Sanders,Davey Kings Lynn Betts, Lee, Turner, so that high standard of rider showed just how good some of the number one's were. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: Did averages ever come into your way of thinking Steve? i can't quite get my head around that part of the discussion.Hans for example from 1977 he was a good rider until he broke his hoodoo to win his first title then he was a outstanding rider did averages influence that decision i think not He was .the best of his generation mainly because of his longevity, also i felt in yesteryear a lot of the teams had three heat leaders Ex)( Belle Vue Collins,SjostenPusey. Ipswich Louis, Sanders,Davey Kings Lynn Betts, Lee, Turner, so that high standard of rider showed just how good some of the number one's were. Averages are one factor Sid. If I can back pedal...we were fortunate at Oxford during the seventies with our promotional tie-ups with Eastbourne and Peterborough and we got to see both John Davis and Gordon Kennett start their senior league duties at Cowley. They were very different riders and it was obvious even at that early stage of their careers altough both eventually became genuine number ones (although John had to beat off some serious competion at Reading). John was more of a gater whereas Gordon often had to battle thru' from the back to register a win therefore I put him higher than John as regards the complete rider although their averages followed similar paths. I personally judge riders on all round ability and that's a very subjective and individual view and/or opinion. Edited February 16, 2019 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) Just to correct.Gordon Kennett started out at Eastbourne and Wimbledon in 1970.He made second half appearances and also 5 league appearances for the Dons that year.Sadly he we let him get away until his return in the 80s It was great to see him in the last appearance of speedway bikes before the track closed for good Edited February 16, 2019 by iris123 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, iris123 said: Just to correct.Gordon Kennett started out at Eastbourne and Wimbledon in 1970.He made second half appearances and also 5 league appearances for the Dons that year.Sadly he we let him get away until his return in the 80s That's indeed true but Gordon moved up full-time with Oxford in 1973 having ridden in some matches towards the back of 1972 as did aforementioned John Davis (however I believe that he was initially on Poole's books?) so it was relelatively easy to compare their progress and differing abilities and/or styles whilst at Cowley. Edited February 16, 2019 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGould Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Have to agree, both great riders, Mavis was flash, brash, great gater ; Gordon was Mr Consistent, best white line passer I think of that era, so close to winning WC in 1978 and like Peter Collins couldn't gate, PC went round the boards and GK round the line. Hard to split them but would agree Steve GK was more complete rider for me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Ok,I just misunderstood ‘start their senior league duties’.One of those that slipped through our fingers,but for me a big surprise to see him out there at the last speedway ‘night’ and the one rider who really rode the track.Went up in my estimation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Just now, iris123 said: Ok,I just misunderstood ‘start their senior league duties’.One of those that slipped through our fingers,but for me a big surprise to see him out there at the last speedway ‘night’ and the one rider who really rode the track.Went up in my estimation Gordon was/is one of my 'all-time' favourites...saw him race many times at Arlington also. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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