Sidney the robin Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 10 hours ago, chunky said: And this is quite possibly the worst post you have ever posted... To say that you cannot assess the ability of a rider when you have never seen him ride is absolutely ridiculous. I would have seen him more, definitely, but I can recall seeing Fundin TWICE; once in the 1969 World Final, and the other, the following year in the WTC final. Can I make an accurate assessment of Fundin based on those two meetings? Hell no. Can I make an accurate assessment of Fundin based on results, records, and reports from the previous 15 or so years? Hell yes! To claim anything else is totally laughable. Steve I see Fundin ride twice and i know his career stats very well but am i as qualified to judge him as say a Norbold/Aces69 who see quite a lot of him i would say NO.Witcher's point is he think's stats come into my way of thinking winning races (etc) my point about Rickardsson who i never took to proves that is not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, chunky said: The problem is that so many people just see things in black and white, whereas in most situations, there are grey areas that apply to many facets of that situation. One of the biggest issues I have with modern sport (and trust me, American sports are the worst) is that they try to explain and justify EVERYTHING (including probability) by using figures and stats. Look at darts. Percentage shots (having two beds to aim at instead of just one) are inflexible. Points-per-dart averages are also, with the ONLY factor involved being what you throw yourself, but speedway CMA's are affected by many outside factors, such as opponents, gate positions, mechanical issues etc. Having said that, trying to explain to an idiot how you can win at darts despite having a lower average, isn't easy... In speedway, a similar situation used to occur in World Championships. A rider could win every race in every world championship round, yet drop one point in the final, and he ended up second. Another rider could scrape through each time, have a good night at the final, and he was World Champ! That is why I find the SGP's much fairer... This leads me to ask one question that I have been thinking about during this discussion (and I would love to see everybody's answers and reasoning)... Which was a greater achievement; Hans Nielsen winning the 1986 World Championship, or his incredible 1986 BL record away from home? Steve One of the main reasons I don't watch sport on TV anymore...the constant analysing (whether by using statistics and/or diagrams) and constant replays from many different angles just bores me. Edited February 18, 2019 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Sidney the robin said: I see Fundin ride twice and i know his career stats very well but am i as qualified to judge him as say a Norbold/Aces69 who see quite a lot of him i would say NO.Witcher's point is he think's stats come into my way of thinking winning races (etc) my point about Rickardsson who i never took to proves that is not the case. You're still talking absolute nonsense. You haven't 'proved' anything about Rickardsson in the slightest. The only statement you have made is he isn't in your top three of all time! Now, you loved Malcolm Holloway, do you rate him as a better rider than Rickardsson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 25 minutes ago, BWitcher said: You're still talking absolute nonsense. You haven't 'proved' anything about Rickardsson in the slightest. The only statement you have made is he isn't in your top three of all time! Now, you loved Malcolm Holloway, do you rate him as a better rider than Rickardsson? Rickardsson is recognized by better judges than you and i to be possibly the greatest rider ever.Personally he was not one of my favourite's he had plenty of heat wins high averages (ect) plenty of breathtaking rides and bearing in mind his main strength was his personality and temperament.It is only my opinion for what it is worth GET over it trott on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said: Rickardsson is recognized by better judges than you and i to be possibly the greatest rider ever.Personally he was not one of my favourite's he had plenty of heat wins high averages (ect) plenty of breathtaking rides and bearing in mind his main strength was his personality and temperament.It is only my opinion for what it is worth GET over it trott on. Answer the question. We're not talking about 'favorite' riders. In your opinion was Tony Rickardsson better than Malcolm Holloway? If so, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 My favourite rider of all time was Mark Loram right from the point of watching him as a mascot and my uncle sponsoring him all the way through to the Holy Grail. It doesnt however cloud my judgement as to his ability.......He was a one time world champ whose overall form was worse than most other world champions..............couldnt ever stand Havelock but without doubt in 1992 he was the dominant rider on the world stage that year bar perhaps Per Jonsson. I never saw Fundin ride and not much of Mauger either but im not foolish enough to think Mark was better than either of those. But yet out of Rickardsson and Loram i know who i would prefer to watch and pay to see 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 44 minutes ago, Gavan said: My favourite rider of all time was Mark Loram right from the point of watching him as a mascot and my uncle sponsoring him all the way through to the Holy Grail. It doesnt however cloud my judgement as to his ability.......He was a one time world champ whose overall form was worse than most other world champions..............couldnt ever stand Havelock but without doubt in 1992 he was the dominant rider on the world stage that year bar perhaps Per Jonsson. I never saw Fundin ride and not much of Mauger either but im not foolish enough to think Mark was better than either of those. But yet out of Rickardsson and Loram i know who i would prefer to watch and pay to see I actually think when you have an association with a rider Gavan sometimes we can be even more critical.Loram was worth the entrance money alone great value also a great ambassador for the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish McRaker Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 17 hours ago, chunky said: There really are so many factors that people don't take into account, and much of it is personal perspective. The same as when we look back and remember just how good the racing was back in the day, but when we look at videos now, we see that it really wasn't any different to what we see now. As far as the statistics, I do love them. The one thing I will say is that numbers don't lie, but they don't always tell the true story BEHIND the numbers... Steve I think one of the problems we get when averages "collapse" as a consequence of smaller leagues, is an accompanying reduction in the "wow effect" when a lesser rider upstages one of the higher scoring ones, because having a 10-point average, in the minds of the spectator, creates more of an aura than if that same rider has a "mere" 8-point average. The achievement by the lesser rider is probably just as great, but the reaction is possibly more muted because he has "only" beaten an 8-pointer, especially if that 8-pointer is having what you would call an off-night. There just aren't any riders taking part in any league nowadays who has that sort of aura. The collapse of averages produced by smaller leagues plays a part in that, but other factors have contributed significantly to a situation where no rider in the world has that aura. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish McRaker Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 7 hours ago, steve roberts said: One of the main reasons I don't watch sport on TV anymore...the constant analysing (whether by using statistics and/or diagrams) and constant replays from many different angles just bores me. Liberal use of the record and fast forward facilities gets around that one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, Hamish McRaker said: I think one of the problems we get when averages "collapse" as a consequence of smaller leagues, is an accompanying reduction in the "wow effect" when a lesser rider upstages one of the higher scoring ones, because having a 10-point average, in the minds of the spectator, creates more of an aura than if that same rider has a "mere" 8-point average. The achievement by the lesser rider is probably just as great, but the reaction is possibly more muted because he has "only" beaten an 8-pointer, especially if that 8-pointer is having what you would call an off-night. There just aren't any riders taking part in any league nowadays who has that sort of aura. The collapse of averages produced by smaller leagues plays a part in that, but other factors have contributed significantly to a situation where no rider in the world has that aura. Absolutely. It goes back to what we were saying earlier about the nights when Mauger, Olsen, or Penhall came to town; we had been looking forward to those for weeks! One of the other factors you mention that destroy the aura is familiarity. We would generally only see those riders once - maybe twice - a season. Smaller leagues and multiple matches against the same teams means they become a "part of the furniture" so to speak, and they lose that aura. Steve 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedtiger Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 Please can we get back on topic i.e. the underwhelming and depressing article by the uninspiring vice chairman Godfrey....? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 hours ago, chunky said: Absolutely. It goes back to what we were saying earlier about the nights when Mauger, Olsen, or Penhall came to town; we had been looking forward to those for weeks! One of the other factors you mention that destroy the aura is familiarity. We would generally only see those riders once - maybe twice - a season. Smaller leagues and multiple matches against the same teams means they become a "part of the furniture" so to speak, and they lose that aura. Steve Plus this year I will see the 'superstars' riding Friday, Saturday and Sunday in the Polish League and Tuesday's every week in Sweden.. And then watch them regularly in the GP's too... All in glorious HD from the comfort of my armchair.. No 'mystique' sadly anymore.. You went to watch Collins, Mauger, Olsen, Penhall etc etc when they visited your track, as it could be the only chance you got all season to see them, apart from the Saturday highlights on World Of Sport of the big meetings... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedtiger Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 Oh and it’s back to all our yesterdays....!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 4 hours ago, Speedtiger said: Please can we get back on topic i.e. the underwhelming and depressing article by the uninspiring vice chairman Godfrey....? I thought that Rob Godfrey had some "believers" who were distorting the posts with the All Our Yesterdays" posts in order to soften the criticism of his statements. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Hamish McRaker said: Liberal use of the record and fast forward facilities gets around that one Trouble is I don't have those facilities on my TV...don't subscribe to anything other than the 'bog' standard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byker Biker Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Speedtiger said: Please can we get back on topic i.e. the underwhelming and depressing article by the uninspiring vice chairman Godfrey....? no point the thread is fukt now, start one on tropical fish Edited February 18, 2019 by Byker Biker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish McRaker Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 hours ago, steve roberts said: Trouble is I don't have those facilities on my TV...don't subscribe to anything other than the 'bog' standard! The number of studio and pitchside experts deployed to live sport broadcasts is becoming ludicrous. David Coleman and his like didn't need that, and what is more they wouldn't have tolerated it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 9 hours ago, Byker Biker said: no point the thread is fukt now, start one on tropical fish Are you sure that RobGodfrey is aware of the difference between, freshwater fish, UK sea fish or tropical fish? An area for confusion if ever there was one were he to be asked to comment on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Hamish McRaker said: The number of studio and pitchside experts deployed to live sport broadcasts is becoming ludicrous. David Coleman and his like didn't need that, and what is more they wouldn't have tolerated it. Yes and all those 'screaming' commentators with their over the top commentary. Kenneth Wolstenholme ("They think it's all over...") was once quoted as saying that one should keep the commentary simple and not feel the need to constantly talk/shout but let the action often speak for itself. Edited February 19, 2019 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish McRaker Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 7 hours ago, steve roberts said: Yes and all those 'screaming' commentators with their over the top commentary. Kenneth Wolstenholme ("They think it's all over...") was once quoted as saying that one should keep the commentary simple and not feel the need to constantly talk/shout but let the action often speak for itself. Sadly it seems the first rule of commentating is to ensure no silences, but of course this is the age of constant noise, much of it of poor quality. Barry Davies was another from the old school now consigned to obsolescence, Peter Alliss is probably the only surviving one. I am certain that Rob Godfrey would agree with this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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