Rob Godfrey interview in Speedway Star

[montie]

On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 2:43 PM, Speedtiger said:

.

Godfrey maybe be passionate about his club but I can assure He is certainly not an intelligent man. He is clueless. . 

so,build his private business from scratch to be a successful local based business,takes a unused grass field in a run down area and turns it into a profitable business and a track that is upthere with the best in the country,and has won silver wear at various levels

 

and you call him not intelligent a clueless?

now it matters not if you like him or not or if you agree with him or not,but  to dish out personnal insults is below the belt,especially when the hard facts prove other wise

 

and id go as far as saying that it isnt the BSPA,the MC,the riders,the tracks thats wrong with British speedway,its clowns like you that continually pull the sport down ,,,,,thats wrong wiith speedway

 

and btw,have you looked on google maps yet to see if your statement that the EWR is a circle is correct?

 

 

[Sidney the robin]

21 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Gordon was/is one of my 'all-time' favourites...saw him race many times at Arlington also.

Gordon was one of the  naturally fittest speedway riders that i  ever see so strong and he was awesome at the Abbey.I really believed he would ride for us at some stage maybe in 1980/ 82 ??? we got Autrey( great rider)   Bastable but it never materialised.At Eastie he was awesome i would say ONLY Kelly could rival him at Arlington bearing in mind Preston,Schwartz,Woods, Dugard were all good homers.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Sidney the robin

[steve roberts]

1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

Gordon was one of the  naturally fittest speedway riders that i  ever see so strong and he was awesome at the Abbey.I really believed he would ride for us at some stage maybe in 1980/ 82 ??? we got Autrey( great rider)   Bastable but it never materialised.At Eastie he was awesome i would say ONLY Kelly could rival him at Arlington bearing in mind Preston,Schwartz,Woods, were all good homers.

I remember his 21 point maximum at Swindon (Kai Niemi got 19) and 'The Eagles' still lost! Personally I felt that Gordon should have moved to Swindon when White City closed rather than returning to Eastbourne...if nothing more it would given me more opportunities watching him ride!

[Sidney the robin]

1 minute ago, steve roberts said:

I remember his 21 point maximum at Swindon (Kai Niemi got 19) and 'The Eagles' still lost! Personally I felt that Gordon should have moved to Swindon when White City closed rather than returning to Eastbourne...if nothing more it would given me more opportunities watching him ride!

I think that day Steve the other Eastie riders scored only five points between them.? Gordon was very good at White city was his trait Steve? forcing his way through on the white line.? My perception of Gordon was he was not that great at Sheffield,Hyde Rd,Halifax,Exeter, the real fast tracks yet he got better there with age. 

[Sidney the robin]

19 hours ago, BWitcher said:

"You felt a lot of the teams had three heat leaders". Really! Amazing! A seven man team ALWAYS has three heat leaders. 

Now you are claiming that Hans Nielsen's average had no impact in you deciding he was good? lmao. The average comes from winning most of your races. It's part and parcel. Had he not had a good average you would not have thought he was one of the worlds best. Period.

You also thought many of the second and third heat leaders were amazing because they had high averages, due to the league format they were in.

Every post you make confirms what I say, you just don't see it.

The second and third heat leaders of that time were the akin of riders such as Kenneth Bjerre, Jack Holder, Jakub Jamrog, Rune Holta etc.I bet you don't rank those as highly do you? Yet they are the same level. 

You are Wrong on one part,  teams NOW don't have three heat leaders like Collins,Sjosten!Pusey. Louis,Sanders,Davey do they???

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

I think that day Steve the other Eastie riders scored only five points between them.? Gordon was very good at White city was his trait Steve? forcing his way through on the white line.? My perception of Gordon was he was not that great at Sheffield,Hyde Rd,Halifax,Exeter, the real fast tracks yet he got better there with age. 

I think that's generally a fair comment althougn during Gordon's superlative year (1977) he registered maximums at both Exeter and Bristol and nearly achieved a full score at Halifax. He rode King's Lynn exceptionally well but strangely when he moved there in 1983 he tended to struggle. He obviously excelled at the vast White City track but the corners were relativey tight which played right into his hands!

Following on from an earlier post comparing Gordon with John Davis John enjoyed a longer career at the top level due I feel to his superior gating skills compared to Gordon obviously proving an advantage then as it does presumably now.

Turned into a bit of a Gordon Kennett thread but that doesn't concern me in the slightest and I make no apologies...anything that gives me the opportunity to reminisce about one of my 'all-time' favourites as others have done is fine by me!!

Edited February 17, 2019 by steve roberts

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

11 hours ago, chunky said:

As I said, I was being pedantic, and I was having a bit of fun too!

Now, this is what I was talking about earlier...  I love numbers and statistics, and I love logic, reason, and fact.  This is pure logic, reason, and fact, and PROVES why averages drop when there are fewer teams and riders.  Yes, it is extreme.  No, it would never happen.  However, it shows the effect.  Riders can still ride at EXACTLY the same standard, but their averages will not reflect that.  I know that Bwitcher and Orion will get this, and I think you will get it too.  O hope Sidney will, but he has to stop letting opinion (without any logical grounds for justification) get in the way of fact.

This isn't the first time I've done something like this, either!  A while back, I PROVED that it was possible for a rider to win EVERY GP - yet still not finish in the Top eight of the GP standings at the end of the season!  People still argue that I am wrong on that, but I have ABSOLUTE PROOF.

Anyway...

Here is an example – albeit extreme – of how fewer teams and riders can – and will – reduce averages. The thing to remember is that speedway averages are not only influenced by a rider’s own ability, but by the ability of those around him. Ability can only be judged compared to those averages around him (and in that particular format and numbers of teams and riders) – not by another rider’s 20 years earlier or 20 years later.

As I said, this is extreme, nut it is the easiest way to prove things, particularly using the old 18-heat, 6-rider team format (but still using the 4-ride CMA – we can all relate to that). Now, the basics are :

The league has 16 teams
Top average rider rides at No.1, second highest at No.3, third highest at No.5, fourth highest at No.2, fifth highest at No.4, and sixth highest at No.6
No.1’s only drops points to HOME No.1
No.3’s only drop points to No.1’s and HOME No.3
No.5’s only drop points to No.1’s and No.3’s, and HOME No.5

And so on… This means that all matches will finish like this.

HOME                                AWAY
1 – 3 3 3 3 3 3 – 18         1 – 2 3 3 2 3 3 – 16
2 – 1 1 1 1 1 1 - 6             2 - 0 1 1 0 1 1 - 4
3 – 3 2 3 3 2 3 – 16         3 – 2 3 2 2 3 2 – 14
4 – 1 0 1 1 0 1 - 4             4 – 0 1 0 0 1 0 - 2
5 – 3 2 2 3 2 2 – 14         5 – 2 2 2 2 2 2 – 12
6 – 1 0 0 1 0 0 - 2             6 – 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0

So, all riders at a particular number will finish with an identical average (and identical record), namely No.1 – 11.33, No.3 – 10.00, No.5 – 8.67, No.2 – 3.33, No.4 – 2.00, No.6 – 0.67.

The following season, the league is reduced from 16 teams to 8, and all second strings drop down a division. The league is now much stronger, and consists of all the best riders.
Each team in the new eight man league will consist of two old No.1’s, two old No.3’s, and two old No.’5’s. The old No.1’s will ride at 1 and 3, the old No.3’s will ride at 5 and 2, and the old No.5’s will ride at 4 and 6.

All results finish exactly the same as the previous season, but look what happens...

All No.1’s will again record an average of 11.33

All No.3’s (formerly No.1’s) will drop from 11.33 to 10.00
All No.5’s (formerly No.3’s) will drop from 10.00 to 8.67
All No.2’s (formerly No.3’s) will drop from 10.00 to 3.33
All No.4’s (formerly No.5’s) will drop from 8.67 to 2.00
All No.6’s (formerly No.5’s) will drop from 8.67 to 0.67

The riders are all riding at exactly the same level as the did the previous year, but they are simply facing top riders more often than they were, and that is the result of having fewer teams, fewer riders, and a more level playing field.

You wanna talk about having fun???  

Steve

Great figures Steve and there is no doubt from a purely statistical position a larger league produces more riders with higher averages

I will however play devils advocate with the below as

Equally if the riders dropped from the league in the example were the top boys then the lower end riders 'promoted' to the 1 3 and 5 positions would go from averaging 3.33 2 and 0.67 up to the higher figures

They would still be the heat leaders but fans may view it that the "heat leaders are what they used to be" or "we dont have heat leaders anymore" as they remember the higher quality riders previously in the league even though those riders remaining now have the higher averages

Perhaps this scenario is closer to the actual situation at the moment. Particularly when the fans can so easily see those higher quality riders that would previously have filled the top positions in our league riding in Poland and Sweden and the GPs with TV and the internet

Thats why we currently see the likes of Lawson and King at Ipswich on a not too disimilar averages to that Woffy and Pawlicki would come in on

That situation hasnt been caused by a reduction in team numbers but rather an exodus of the top riders in recent years

[BWitcher]

2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

You are Wrong on one part,  teams NOW don't have three heat leaders like Collins,Sjosten!Pusey. Louis,Sanders,Davey do they???

No Sidney. You are wrong as you STILL don't understand what we are talking about.

Nobody is saying the BRITISH leagues are as strong now because the top riders don't ride here. The comparison, as I have told you over and over would be Poland where they do.

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Great figures Steve and there is no doubt from a purely statistical position a larger league produces more riders with higher averages

I will however play devils advocate with the below as

Equally if the riders dropped from the league in the example were the top boys then the lower end riders 'promoted' to the 1 3 and 5 positions would go from averaging 3.33 2 and 0.67 up to the higher figures

They would still be the heat leaders but fans may view it that the "heat leaders are what they used to be" or "we dont have heat leaders anymore" as they remember the higher quality riders previously in the league even though those riders remaining now have the higher averages

Perhaps this scenario is closer to the actual situation at the moment. Particularly when the fans can so easily see those higher quality riders that would previously have filled the top positions in our league riding in Poland and Sweden and the GPs with TV and the internet

Thats why we currently see the likes of Lawson and King at Ipswich on a not too disimilar averages to that Woffy and Pawlicki would come in on

That situation hasnt been caused by a reduction in team numbers but rather an exodus of the top riders in recent years

That's the entire point we have been making.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

That's the entire point we have been making.

I appreciate that (I started but agreeing all your arguement is 100% correct) but was pointing out that the comparisons are not only affected by the number of teams changing but also by the pool of riders lost or gained as the change happens

Take your example re Staechman and Parker becoming 8.5 point riders after being 6 point riders because of one big league. This was because the riders introduced to boost the numbers were low end 'rookies' below the standard of the pair

Had the new rider pool been drawn from 'world class' level above the standard of that pair then their averages may well have fallen

I was trying to set out why 2 people can disagree on the outcome yet having been using the same set of statistics

You cant really compare one 16 team league with another 16 team league let alone a 16 team league with a 7/8 team league from the average figures alone as other significant variables are in play rather than just league size

 

[Hamish McRaker]

No matter how many statistical permutations and theories are advanced, it is always people's individual perceptions of reality that ultimately have the greatest influence on their thoughts and decisions

[BWitcher]

3 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

I appreciate that (I started but agreeing all your arguement is 100% correct) but was pointing out that the comparisons are not only affected by the number of teams changing but also by the pool of riders lost or gained as the change happens

Take your example re Staechman and Parker becoming 8.5 point riders after being 6 point riders because of one big league. This was because the riders introduced to boost the numbers were low end 'rookies' below the standard of the pair

Had the new rider pool been drawn from 'world class' level above the standard of that pair then their averages may well have fallen

I was trying to set out why 2 people can disagree on the outcome yet having been using the same set of statistics

You cant really compare one 16 team league with another 16 team league let alone a 16 team league with a 7/8 team league from the average figures alone as other significant variables are in play rather than just league size

 

You're trying to set out something that is completely irrelevant to the point being made. You've also failed miserably in your objective.

A larger league has more heat leaders. Absolute indisputable fact.

A larger league will have more riders achieving higher averages and losing less often. Absolute indisputable fact.

A larger league creates an impression that some riders are great, whereas in another format they may not be viewed that way.

The scenario you have tried to create was essentially impossible as there weren't and never will be that many 'world class' riders. In every single era of speedway there has ever been there have always been a small group of riders ahead of the others, then a group behind and so on down the levels.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2019 by BWitcher

[BWitcher]

2 hours ago, Hamish McRaker said:

No matter how many statistical permutations and theories are advanced, it is always people's individual perceptions of reality that ultimately have the greatest influence on their thoughts and decisions

You don't need statistical permutation.

The reality is extremely simple. The more you see a rider win races, the better you will think they are. Only Sidney and Steve Roberts seem incapable of grasping that fact.

I challenge them to name me a brilliant rider who never won a race.

[steve roberts]

Just now, BWitcher said:

You don't need statistical permutation.

The reality is extremely simple. The more you see a rider win races, the better you will think they are. Only Sidney and Steve Roberts seem incapable of grasping that fact.

I challenge them to name me a brilliant rider who never won a race.

...There you go again. Where have I said that?

[BWitcher]

Just now, steve roberts said:

...There you go again. Where have I said that?

So you disagree with Sidney then?

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, BWitcher said:

No Sidney. You are wrong as you STILL don't understand what we are talking about.

Nobody is saying the BRITISH leagues are as strong now because the top riders don't ride here. The comparison, as I have told you over and over would be Poland where they do.

 

5 hours ago, BWitcher said:

No Sidney. You are wrong as you STILL don't understand what we are talking about.

Nobody is saying the BRITISH leagues are as strong now because the top riders don't ride here. The comparison, as I have told you over and over would be Poland where they do.

You comment on something no DISRESPECT to you  but you did not see these riders did you????? How do you no how i  percieve  thing's ?.Lets look at it from another angle i started watching speedway in 68/69 i don't pretend to know more than Norbold/ Aces 69 who had knowledge and experience of watching these riders live ( i.e.) Knutsson.Craven ( etc) did averages come into my way of thinking certainly not opinions usually are based on the memory bank.

[steve roberts]

6 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

So you disagree with Sidney then?

You're not quoting registered 'likes' again. I've already covered that in a previous post if you had bothered to read it.

[BWitcher]

8 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

You're not quoting registered 'likes' again. I've already covered that in a previous post if you had bothered to read it.

So you're liking things you don't agree with? Rather strange.

Simple question, is your judgement of riders effected by how often you see them the win races.. yes or no?

Edited February 17, 2019 by BWitcher

[BWitcher]

16 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

 

You comment on something no DISRESPECT to you  but you did not see these riders did you????? How do you no how i  percieve  thing's ?.Lets look at it from another angle i started watching speedway in 68/69 i don't pretend to know more than Norbold/ Aces 69 who had knowledge and experience of watching these riders live ( i.e.) Knutsson.Craven ( etc) did averages come into my way of thinking certainly not opinions usually are based on the memory bank.

There you go again with the same nonsense. Averages is just a measuring stick.

The more you saw riders win, the better you thought they were.. their average being higher was just a consequence of that. There is no other way of judging the overall ability of a speedway rider. Yes you can throw in skills such as team riding etc to further refine things but in a nutshell winning races is what counts.

Are riders like Kenneth Bjerre, Jakob Jamrog and Jack Holder top class riders in your eyes Sidney?

Edited February 17, 2019 by BWitcher

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

11 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

You're trying to set out something that is completely irrelevant to the point being made. You've also failed miserably in your objective.

A larger league has more heat leaders. Absolute indisputable fact.

A larger league will have more riders achieving higher averages and losing less often. Absolute indisputable fact.

A larger league creates an impression that some riders are great, whereas in another format they may not be viewed that way.

The scenario you have tried to create was essentially impossible as there weren't and never will be that many 'world class' riders. In every single era of speedway there has ever been there have always been a small group of riders ahead of the others, then a group behind and so on down the levels.

 

 

I agree with all your 'indisputable facts' because they are indeed indisputable

I would disagree my suggested scenario is essentially impossible

I used the term 'world class' as the examples being used were of extremes and this would be the opposite to the 'rookies'

In reality those introduced would only had to have been marginally better than Staechman and Parker rather than actual world class for it to prove true and that would not have been 'essentially impossible' 

8 team league 56 riders The riders is postions 20 - 35 are likely to be around 6 point average 

16 team league with new riders at lower end those same 6 pointers will become 8 pointers (20/35 out of 112)

16 team league with new riders at higher end those same 6 pointers will become 4 pointers (70/85 out of 112)