iris123 Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 (edited) As ever Halifax makes some very good points One thing comes to mind.Going back to 2004 or 2005,we had fans criticising things going on.They were getting posts on here telling them it was the Promoters who were putting in the money and because of that were above criticism and those criticising should put substantial amounts into the sport and then maybe they would have a different opinion.Even worse,they were told by certain Promoters to bugger off More than a decade later,many fans have done........ You have to engage with fans,no matter how hard it might seem.You have to try and explain your position even if some won' accept the answer.You have to fight like a champion to make your business successful,because all of your competitors,whoever they may be,will take advantage if you don't.Telling fans to p off or ban them from forums isn't the way forward Edited February 12, 2019 by iris123 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 53 minutes ago, iwright71 said: It seems we have a brilliant product that nobody wants to pay to watch. The mystery deepens It's not the racing.. it's all about perception. Formula One is awful racing.. but look at the popularity and the glamour. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 56 minutes ago, The Weasel said: It'll upset a few on here but we actually need less teams, too many can't afford to race at any sort of reasonable level and the sport cannot move forward whilst it panders to these clubs, you are only as strong as your weakest link. You're not upsetting me, but I just don't agree. One of the reasons that British speedway has gone stale - or at least, the paying public feels it has gone stale - is a lack of variety. Being in a league with just eight or ten teams - and the same handful of riders - leads to tedium when you are watching them five or six times a year. Back when we had eighteen or nineteen teams, you only got to see most teams just the once - maybe twice if you met them in the cup; that gave us something to look forward to, even if you hated Mauger, Olsen or whoever! Sure, at Plough Lane, we saw Hackney three or four times, but as our arch-enemies, that was okay. We had variety of formats, with best pairs, four team tournaments, individual events, and even three-team tournaments. As far as individual events, most tracks would have at least two, and you tended to get pretty different line-ups for each. There was also a variety of track sizes, shapes, and surfaces (and banking). They didn't always provide the closest meetings (like Wimbledon against Halifax, or Crayford against Exeter), but you got to see some of the lesser lights shining because they were more of a small-track or large-track rider. That's why we at Wimbledon always looked forward to seeing new Americans; even if they weren't THAT good, they usually were when they visited South London! Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Chunky makes a good point. The other major aspect of a bigger league is it simply creates more 'stars'. The bigger the league, the more heat leaders there are and the less often you see the top riders in the league beaten.. which adds to their 'mystique' and makes you want to see them when they visit. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: Chunky makes a good point. The other major aspect of a bigger league is it simply creates more 'stars'. The bigger the league, the more heat leaders there are and the less often you see the top riders in the league beaten.. which adds to their 'mystique' and makes you want to see them when they visit. I actually think now apart from Doyle /Lambert if you had a bigger league and more teams the riders now are quite evenly matched.Therefore there would be different results in alot of heats that is why people now believe the one big league should be tried again now the level between the first and second tiers are closer than it has ever been. Look at it whatever way you want to but my instinct tells me that Fundin,Craven, Briggs, Mauger, Olsen,Michanek,Nielsen,Lee,Collins,Gundersen, Ricko, Jason.etc) would be top stars in any era and in whatever format. Edited February 12, 2019 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: It's not the racing.. it's all about perception. Formula One is awful racing.. but look at the popularity and the glamour. You mean standing at Blunsdon on a wet and windy October night isn't glamorous??? Seriously though, I agree about the perception... Non-speedway folks always perceived it as being "blokes riding around in circles:, and "first out of the gate always wins". Oh yeah, we are are so quick to dismiss them as idiots. However, us speedway folks cannot be absolved from blame, particularly looking at some of the stuff on here these days. Perception, eh? "It's not as good as good as it used to be!" Why not? Or the ridiculous statement that 90% of riders in the 60's were better than the world's best today? You think you can really quantify that? I am one of those who believe that the racing WASN'T noticeably better back in the good ol' days. There were aspects pf the sport - quite a few in fact - that were better, but when it comes down to it, it is justa case of us looking through rose-tinted specs. As a young lad, I was enthralled by the sight of strapping he-men and gladiators called Norman, Jack, and Harry, wrestling these powerful steeds through waist=high cinders! As a 56-year-old, I see little tattooed kids riding around on bikes that sound like lawnmowers on helium... Yes, tracks have changed. Machinery has changed. PEOPLE have changed.The reality is that speedway was - and still is - a case of four men racing 500cc bikes (with no brakes and no gears) on shale ovals. Despite the change in sounds and smells, that's exactly what it is. What we have to do is be realistic, and accept that WE are just as much at fault. It's not just speedway either, but when we convince ourselves that our biased - and inevitably negative - views of everything (based on how it USED to be), there is always going to be a problem, Of course, the administration of the sport (particularly in Britain) has been questionable for a number of years, but speedway racing is still speedway racing. Steve 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: I actually think now apart from Doyle /Lambert if you had a bigger league and more teams the riders now are quite evenly matched.Therefore there would be different results in alot of heats that is why people now believe the one big league should be tried again now the level between the first and second tiers are closer than it has ever been. That's what BWitcher was saying months ago, and everyone was offended by it! That is why people say that the "top boys" aren't as good as they used to be. Not a bit of it; it just means is that there are more at the same approximate level. Oh, and you can add Tai to that list, too... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedtiger Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 37 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Chunky makes a good point. The other major aspect of a bigger league is it simply creates more 'stars'. The bigger the league, the more heat leaders there are and the less often you see the top riders in the league beaten.. which adds to their 'mystique' and makes you want to see them when they visit. Agreed, it must go to one league and should have done years ago now. The sport bizarrely operates in 2 distinct entities...they even have separate meetings and discusstions at the AGM....and during the season...!!! I appreciate that 10-15 years ago the difference in rider quality between what was Elite (now Premier) League EL and Premier (now Championship) League PL BUT that could/can be balanced out, especially now the quality of riders in both leagues means there is very little difference between the Leagues. Historically the main issue (maybe still is) to forming one league was money. The Premier League clubs business model and pay structure, in the main, actually worked. Elite League business structure and rider pay became far too high and seriously inflated by Sky money which EL didn’t want to share with PL. Why would a PL club making money want to go in to EL and loose money...? Then when the TV money disappeared along with thousands of paying customers....bingo, disaster. It is clear that speedway is in a terminal state and needs to be radically restructured and the ‘product reinvented’ and vigorously promoted...this is the only way to attract more people and bring money into the sport....the $64,000 question is...has the BSPA the vision, courage and ability to do it...sadly history says NO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 43 minutes ago, chunky said: That's what BWitcher was saying months ago, and everyone was offended by it! That is why people say that the "top boys" aren't as good as they used to be. Not a bit of it; it just means is that there are more at the same approximate level. Oh, and you can add Tai to that list, too... Steve I don't actually think you can even compare today to the days of those that we have spoken about Steve..The big boys are not there anymore in the UK Doyley,Lambert, Fricke are for me at this moment in time in the top thirty riders in the World.The other two league's in the U.K. are very close and yes it could create a good product if combined as one big league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, chunky said: That's what BWitcher was saying months ago, and everyone was offended by it! That is why people say that the "top boys" aren't as good as they used to be. Not a bit of it; it just means is that there are more at the same approximate level. Oh, and you can add Tai to that list, too... Steve So Steve just a example in the BL anyway and these are just no 1s , Top boys from 1980/83 Penhall, ,Lee,Nielsen,Carter,Jessup,Sigalos, Sanders,Gundersen, S.Moran/Kelly. Now in 2019 you said the big boys i imagine would be ? Doyley,,Lambert, Fricke, Masters,Thorssell, Bjerre,Batchelor,Kurtz,Holder, Musielak. Edited February 12, 2019 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 So the learned Mr Godfrey said: "We can let even them in for free..." (Not sure if he actually said that or it's a typo in the Star) ".......................But they don't come back the next week." So the obvious conclusion is people do not want to buy the product you are offering. Ask yourself why. Speedway has an image problem and a reality problem. The image is that first out of the start usually wins, most races have very little passing and for the most part nothing of note actually happens during a race. The reality is that first out of the start usually wins, most races have very little passing and for the most part nothing of note actually happens during a race. Once you fix the reality, you will have started the process of fixing the image but it won't happen overnight. You fix the reality by fixing the tracks. Comparisons with F1 are utterly spurious - an annual event in each country with millions of pounds invested by global corporations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said: So Steve just a example in the BL anyway and these are just no 1s , Top boys from 1980/83 Penhall, ,Lee,Nielsen,Carter,Jessup,Sigalos, Sanders,Gundersen, S.Moran/Kelly. Now in 2019 you said the big boys i imagine would be ? Doyley,,Lambert, Fricke, Masters,Thorssell, Bjerre,Batchelor,Kurtz,Holder, Musielak. Not again. If those top boys were riding in the same format as now they wouldn't be as revered. Why? Because they'd be facing each other and other riders near their level far more often, getting beat on a much more regular basis. Just as they do in Poland.. which is where you need to make the comparison. Nobody is saying the best riders are in the UK anymore. Edited February 12, 2019 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 14 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said: IT is very easy to lay the blame at the door of Chapman or Godfrey alone. They are part of an organisation and do not have autonomy. Other promoters have an equal vote at the AGM or other meetings so what we have now is a collective decision not what either Chapman or Godfrey decided on their own. They are to all intents and purposes, the public face of speedways administrative body. They are by far the worst leaders the sport has ever seen. Both are totally inarticulate, totally unimaginative , totally unable to project themselves or the sport, totally unable and unwilling to comunicate with the fans in a meaningful way, and totally unable to seriously consider any outlook on the sport but their own. Other promiters may have simialar flaws but these are the two front men who should be selling the sport. Quite seriously, what progress has the sport made since they have taken over the reins , despite Chapmans bluster at the outset ? They are the worst of a bad bunch. Beyond useless. 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted February 13, 2019 Report Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, BWitcher said: Not again. If those top boys were riding in the same format as now they wouldn't be as revered. Why? Because they'd be facing each other and other riders near their level far more often, getting beat on a much more regular basis. Just as they do in Poland.. which is where you need to make the comparison. Nobody is saying the best riders are in the UK anymore. Those riders i named were revered because the simple facts were they were great riders four of them World champions.I don't remember them because they were getting a 15 point max at Exeter on Monday night and then only dropping the odd point here and there giving them inflated averages.Poland of course now is a very high level and yes it is great to see , but going back to Chapman had he took a chance on some sort of big league maybe even regional i believe the product could be good.More fixtures riders of similar ability facing each other hopefully making for closer racing that chance was lost.Was that a last chance scenario missed who knows? as we have it now we have a top league in name only giving us about 15 home meetings a year. Edited February 13, 2019 by Sidney the robin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted February 13, 2019 Report Share Posted February 13, 2019 8 hours ago, Stoke Potter said: So the learned Mr Godfrey said: "We can let even them in for free..." (Not sure if he actually said that or it's a typo in the Star) ".......................But they don't come back the next week." So the obvious conclusion is people do not want to buy the product you are offering. Ask yourself why. Speedway has an image problem and a reality problem. The image is that first out of the start usually wins, most races have very little passing and for the most part nothing of note actually happens during a race. The reality is that first out of the start usually wins, most races have very little passing and for the most part nothing of note actually happens during a race. Once you fix the reality, you will have started the process of fixing the image but it won't happen overnight. You fix the reality by fixing the tracks. Comparisons with F1 are utterly spurious - an annual event in each country with millions of pounds invested by global corporations. 100% agree with you. Especially the conclusion as to why people don't return after being let in free ( to a taster/trial ) match. They Do Not want to but that product which they sampled. And mostly for the reasons, you have listed. It's like trying a new flavour of crisps and if a new one launched fails to sell, it's withdrawn. The tracks and modern bikes do not combine to provide much in the way of exciting racing ( on a consistent basis ) . Another alternative to improve the racing as a spectacle ( because when it's good it's very good! ) is to have standardised lower capacity bikes ( 250s are now just as powerful ). Perhaps someone more technical than myself could comment on the use of a sleeve to take current 500s to a 350? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted February 13, 2019 Report Share Posted February 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, waytogo28 said: Another alternative to improve the racing as a spectacle ( because when it's good it's very good! ) is to have standardised lower capacity bikes ( 250s are now just as powerful ). Perhaps someone more technical than myself could comment on the use of a sleeve to take current 500s to a 350? I can imagine the 2030 posts now "I remember when we had real men riding full size bikes and proper racing in 2019" Seriously I don't think reducing engine size will make much difference to the racing, if anything it would become more processional as they wouldn't be using throttle control to find grip. It would increase costs with smaller engines revving their nuts off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted February 13, 2019 Report Share Posted February 13, 2019 There's only one way to get kids interested in Speedway. Every club should send their team manager and club captain to secondary schools around their local areas. Bikes on show and clips of the racing, crashes and also embrace the subject of injuries and death within the sport. Students will fully embrace the rough side of the sport as this is what will get them interested with their youthful, fearless mentality. Then also every student should be given a full, in depth letter and usb stick with the same presentation that can be shown to the parents. Within this, a free training school voucher so any brave parent can allow their adolescent to experience just how tough this sport really is. Only this way will the sport get back to the full stadium days and keep Speedway alive for decades to come. It's the only way to get the young to understand and appreciate just how tough and exciting this sport can be. Taking a student to a meeting where there's no racing, no crashes etc will put them off for life. They need to understand the hard side of the sport, it'll gets their juices flowing. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted February 13, 2019 Report Share Posted February 13, 2019 On 2/10/2019 at 1:17 PM, Speedtiger said: . Speedway (currently) is a professional sport but mainly run by rank amateurs or enthusiasts with very little intelligence or business acumen. Godfrey and Chapman are living proof....and they and others are to blame and why the sport is bust. The stadium is a dump, the track is sort of okay but it’s hardly an oval, it’s a circle, hardly living proof is it when both chaps mentioned above seem to run successfull business and are self made,kind makes your point incorrect and as regards to the EWR being a circle,may i suggest you visit google maps and look direct at the track from above,i think you will find its along way off a circle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 13, 2019 Report Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: There's only one way to get kids interested in Speedway. Every club should send their team manager and club captain to secondary schools around their local areas. Bikes on show and clips of the racing, crashes and also embrace the subject of injuries and death within the sport. Students will fully embrace the rough side of the sport as this is what will get them interested with their youthful, fearless mentality. Then also every student should be given a full, in depth letter and usb stick with the same presentation that can be shown to the parents. Within this, a free training school voucher so any brave parent can allow their adolescent to experience just how tough this sport really is. Only this way will the sport get back to the full stadium days and keep Speedway alive for decades to come. It's the only way to get the young to understand and appreciate just how tough and exciting this sport can be. Taking a student to a meeting where there's no racing, no crashes etc will put them off for life. They need to understand the hard side of the sport, it'll gets their juices flowing. I actually gave some presentations back in the noughties at some primary schools and it was all pretty low key stuff and I could have done with some real merchandise ie a bike to grab the attention and/or enthusiasm of the kids. Personally I felt it really didn't achieve much and could have done with some support from the management...something along the lines that you suggset. Edited February 13, 2019 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted February 13, 2019 Report Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: There's only one way to get kids interested in Speedway. Every club should send their team manager and club captain to secondary schools around their local areas. Bikes on show and clips of the racing, crashes and also embrace the subject of injuries and death within the sport. Students will fully embrace the rough side of the sport as this is what will get them interested with their youthful, fearless mentality. Then also every student should be given a full, in depth letter and usb stick with the same presentation that can be shown to the parents. Within this, a free training school voucher so any brave parent can allow their adolescent to experience just how tough this sport really is. Only this way will the sport get back to the full stadium days and keep Speedway alive for decades to come. It's the only way to get the young to understand and appreciate just how tough and exciting this sport can be. Taking a student to a meeting where there's no racing, no crashes etc will put them off for life. They need to understand the hard side of the sport, it'll gets their juices flowing. Kids are simply not interested in Speedway because they have far more things nowadays to keep them interested and get their 'kicks'.. And, just maybe, what we considered 'exciting and adrenalin fuelled' is to the average teenager (who goes on 'killing sprees' and 'saves the world' from the comfort of their bedrooms every night), not anywhere near as exciting or adrenalin fuelled to them.... What does amaze me is why clubs charge school age teenagers to get in.. They don't go now so it would be zero loss letting them in for nothing, and you would at least (for those who own the food outlets) sell more Coke and Burgers. Teenagers also 'hunt in packs', so getting your teenager to go with you on their own is sometimes akin to removing blood from a stone.. Letting them in for free would mean they and their mates can all attend together to 'hang out', well away from the 'old man'.. Whether any of them transfer to become paying customers further down the line is the big unknown, however one thing is for sure... You will have far more chance of getting them interested later in life if they have sampled the experience several times.. And being 'sheep' the more that attend , the more that will follow.. And if nothing else, it would make the crowds look bigger, which can only reflect the sport positively, and lower the average age of the crowd demographic considerably... Edited February 13, 2019 by mikebv 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.