dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted February 14, 2019 Report Share Posted February 14, 2019 14 minutes ago, Najjer said: Surely it's time based - It wouldn't matter if one person had his transponder on the front forks and the other on the back mudguard... The time for it to get around the track would be the same time. Time will all start at same point when tapes rise Clock will stop when cross the line so will be a significant difference from front to back of bike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted February 14, 2019 Report Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Najjer said: Surely it's time based - It wouldn't matter if one person had his transponder on the front forks and the other on the back mudguard... The time for it to get around the track would be the same time. It's first past the post, not who did the fastest time, although logically in most cases, that is the same person. Otherwise you could have a rider deliberately missing the gate by a few second to give himself a free run around at the back in a faster time than the rider who crosses the line first? Edited February 14, 2019 by Gambo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted February 14, 2019 Report Share Posted February 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Najjer said: Surely it's time based - It wouldn't matter if one person had his transponder on the front forks and the other on the back mudguard... The time for it to get around the track would be the same time. Badly flawed view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted February 14, 2019 Report Share Posted February 14, 2019 3 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said: Time will all start at same point when tapes rise Clock will stop when cross the line so will be a significant difference from front to back of bike Start the clock when they cross the line and end the clock when they finish it. That is the most logical way of it working. 2 hours ago, Gambo said: It's first past the post, not who did the fastest time, although logically in most cases, that is the same person. Otherwise you could have a rider deliberately missing the gate by a few second to give himself a free run around at the back in a faster time than the rider who crosses the line first? Whoever crosses the line first, would have the fastest time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-s-p Posted February 14, 2019 Report Share Posted February 14, 2019 3 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said: Time will all start at same point when tapes rise Clock will stop when cross the line so will be a significant difference from front to back of bike With transponders they give the system a ”hit” when they cross the line. So no, it will start timing when you cross the line, not when tapes go up. And yes, it does not matter at all where your ponder is on friday. But as they are supposed to ve used for close finished in the meeting, it matters a great deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted February 14, 2019 Report Share Posted February 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Najjer said: Start the clock when they cross the line and end the clock when they finish it. That is the most logical way of it working. Whoever crosses the line first, would have the fastest time! Not if the clock doesnt start until the ponder crosses the line - as Gambo points out a rider could sit for a few seconds finish many yards behind yet post the fatest time from the ponder result 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted February 14, 2019 Report Share Posted February 14, 2019 It's quite simple really.....the Referee would start the timer with the tapes button and the transponder would stop the timing when it crosses the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) I can't understand why people are thinking this is so complicated. How do they think it works in F1 (answer = one transponder located in standard position at front of car, and backup transponder located in standard position at back of car*)? Just put the transponder in a standard position on the front of the bike, most likely under the fork cover. The difference in positioning from bike-to-bike will be millimetres, but will have no consequences for timed qualifying because it'll all be relative. For racing, if there's an extremely close finish, most good timing systems have an option for a photo finish which I think is determined by a beam across the track of some sort. So if there's any discrepancy because of minute differences in the positioning of transponders, that should be able to sort it out, and is also what happens in F1. Obviously in a race, the clock needs to start when the tapes go up (or when the green light goes out if that's used). The race begins at that moment, not when a rider crosses the start line (which potentially they may never do) - it would be utterly daft to base the results of a race on how quickly someone rode around the circuit if they finished behind someone else. * It's not unknown for one of the transponders in an F1 car to fail, so sometimes times will only be recorded from the rear transponder. Edited February 15, 2019 by Humphrey Appleby 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted February 15, 2019 Report Share Posted February 15, 2019 From a sporting perspective, it's a fairly interesting development...no more. The idea that the fastest rider gets to choose the best riding position is a bit underwhelming. But there is potential here. If there were bonus points to be gained from qualifying, that might make it more interesting, say 5-3-2-1 for the top four? From a tech perspective, this could open the door to more interesting developments. I find swimming a very boring sport. But at the Olympics and major televised meets, I do like the red line of the world record that is superimposed onto the race. I wonder if something similar could be used for speedway? In a boring race for example, it becomes a whole lot more interesting if Tai Woffinden is chasing down the track record. I have also long thought starting tapes to be very old fashioned. Surely, the GPs could easily use a laser beam device, which could provide absolute accuracy for any 'tape' touching. It could also be used to decide any particularly tight finishes - the winner breaks the beam first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 Surely tapes-up for qualifying is irrelevant as they're measuring a flying lap aren't they? Agreed for the races that riders will want a standard position on the bike. I also like the idea of measuring actual mph during a race (like they do with skiing for example) - they'd need readers at multiple points though so they may consider it too expensive...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 Phil Morris says he tries to make tracks with a known gate bias as even as possible. Is that by watering or ripping up the known bad gate ? Doesn't this render the process of each rider picking a start number a waste of time. That is assuming he does his job perfectly so all four gates are even. It then down to dropping the clutch first to lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-s-p Posted February 18, 2019 Report Share Posted February 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Mark said: Phil Morris says he tries to make tracks with a known gate bias as even as possible. Is that by watering or ripping up the known bad gate ? Doesn't this render the process of each rider picking a start number a waste of time. That is assuming he does his job perfectly so all four gates are even. It then down to dropping the clutch first to lead. Only seen it done once and the process was to rip-open the track from all width of the track about 5 meters behind the tapes and about 20 in front. So it's not about working with that one bad gate, but to prepare them all the same way. Just read the interview from Spar myself and still cant believe why they are talking about the chance to pick your gates… Thats bollocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) New regs on qualifying with transponders; another case of a simple sport made (unnecessarily) complicated. Transponders; a good idea to time races accurately & spilt dead-heated riders, but individual laps times are really just for interest only. Starting number and therefore gates picked at random still the best, fairest method IMO, I mean heat details are rcorded but does anyone record who arrived at turn1 in what position and then whether they were overtaken or not during a heat..... Edited February 19, 2019 by martinmauger (hopeful) clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-s-p Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 hours ago, martinmauger said: New regs on qualifying with transponders; another case of a simple sport made (unnecessarily) complicated. Transponders; a good idea to time races accurately & spilt dead-heated riders, but individual laps times are really just for interest only. Starting number and therefore gates picked at random still the best, fairest method IMO, I mean heat details are rcorded but does anyone record who arrived at turn1 in what position and then whether they were overtaken or not during a heat..... I dont, but I've seen some pretty interesting methods on keeping track on overtaking and gating... And I mean in writing, not any fancy iPad applications.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, f-s-p said: I dont, but I've seen some pretty interesting methods on keeping track on overtaking and gating... And I mean in writing, not any fancy iPad applications.. Photographers normally have decent records of that sort of thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-s-p Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 1 hour ago, iris123 said: Photographers normally have decent records of that sort of thing Yes but I know a few people and chatted to few others from the UK, people that have been going to speedway for decades and are anoraks in one way or other regarding speedway. It's in a way fascinating what kind of systems they've built regarding how they fill their programs during meetings and all the info THEY can read from it afterwards... Regarding ponders... I've never actually managed the Mylaps-system, just played with it a little and been to races where it's used. But say you really could start the clock by releasing the tapes, that would (sort of, not definite) give the time for the riders that they pass the wires for the first time. So in effect you could create a similar system to mx, where I understand the first guy to hit 1st bend gets a trophy... Over here they talk about making the "Holeshot" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) You didn’t bump into Lucifer Sam (on here) ? He uses 5 or 6 different colored pens to fill in his Programme to mark out various things !!!! Edited February 19, 2019 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 8 hours ago, f-s-p said: I dont, but I've seen some pretty interesting methods on keeping track on overtaking and gating... And I mean in writing, not any fancy iPad applications.. Some F1 fans and many drivers' wives / girlfriends used to do this, maybe they still do, record each car for every lap of a 70ish lap race covered.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted March 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 From the SGP regs for 2019 A transponder/decoder system will be the main timekeeping equipment and an auxiliary apparatus functioning automatically, synchronized with real-time and registering time to 1/100 second. A digital display panel, linked directly to the timekeeping system shall indicate: - the time registered by the rider as they cross the finish line. - the number of the rider. - the name of the rider. A monitor should supplement the display of the test classification. An apparatus functioning automatically and placed on the starting line will take the exact time of the passage of the riders to the starting line. The green button on the referees control panel will be the official start of the timing system. the completion of the race will be automatically determined once the rider in first crosses the finish line. In the event of a “result review” images will be accessible to the referee. For such types of apparatus, the certificate must guarantee not only the accuracy but also the efficiency of the apparatus as a whole working under the conditions for which it is to be used. A transponder/decoder system may also be used at the time checks. A timekeeper officiating at a FIM Speedway Grand Prix World Championship must have at his disposal a reserve chronometer in order to make up for any possible breakdown of the instruments normally being used. Riders must accept any type of Time keeping system approved by the FIM Speedway Grand Prix Commission, including transponders. During the machine examinations, the transponder will be given to the rider for the chronometric. The FIM Chief Technical Steward will refuse any machine that does not have a correctly-positioned positive transponder attachment. The transponder must be fixed to the motorcycles used for the free practice, qualifying and races in the position and orientation as shown in the timekeeping information given to riders. The correct attachment of the transponder bracket consists at the minimum, of plastic tiewraps, Velcro or adhesive alone will not be accepted. The transponder retaining clip must also be secured by a plastic tie-wrap. The rider is the sole person responsible for the above mentioned proceedings. The loss of the transponder during the event will result in a fine of 200 EUR to be taken out of the prize money. The rider is the sole person responsible for the transponder. All the tests must be approved by the FIM Jury. A member of the FIM Jury will pay particular attention to the respect of the rules and to the efficient running of the test. The starting line must be marked (white line on the ground, start gate etc.) The timing line (transponder loop) will be situated on the start line. The classification of riders in the races will be calculated on the basis of achieved times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted March 16, 2019 Report Share Posted March 16, 2019 (edited) I have just seen on the BBC F1 site that the driver with the Fastest Lap time during the race will receive an extra (Bonus Point), providing he finishes in the top 10. Could Speedway eventually follow suit with a fastest Race win BP? That could make the Qualifying/Practice times more crucial in choice of starting number. Edited March 16, 2019 by Gambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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