Transponders and qualifying times introduced in GP’s in 2019

[blocktread]

I'm all for it,we need to move on,most other motor sports use the same system.How do they know in advance which gate is the best?How do they know how the track is prepared for a GP compared to qualifying? They don't.

Also it could lead to practice/qualifying on live tv,as in most other motor sports.Sometimes as exciting to watch as the actual racing.

Speedway is stuck in a time warp,most fans are middle age to elders and want things to stay as they are,I myself am 68 but think this is a good idea,we need to move on.

I'd love to see transponders used in league meeting too,when non speedway people ask me how do we time races and I say a bloke with a stop watch they cannot believe that in this day and age.

Bring it on.

[Mark]

1 hour ago, blocktread said:

I'm all for it,we need to move on,most other motor sports use the same system.How do they know in advance which gate is the best?How do they know how the track is prepared for a GP compared to qualifying? They don't.

Also it could lead to practice/qualifying on live tv,as in most other motor sports.Sometimes as exciting to watch as the actual racing.

Speedway is stuck in a time warp,most fans are middle age to elders and want things to stay as they are,I myself am 68 but think this is a good idea,we need to move on.

I'd love to see transponders used in league meeting too,when non speedway people ask me how do we time races and I say a bloke with a stop watch they cannot believe that in this day and age.

Bring it on.

Practise in Formula One is vital. Fastest car gets an advantage on the grid.  But you're saying speedway riders don't know the best gate in advance nor how the track will ride. 

So what's the point of the timed practice day if there is no advantage to be gained on race day.

[PHILIPRISING]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

Practise in Formula One is vital. Fastest car gets an advantage on the grid.  But you're saying speedway riders don't know the best gate in advance nor how the track will ride. 

So what's the point of the timed practice day if there is no advantage to be gained on race day.

BECAUSE the riders want it. Maybe of no interest or value to fans (including the likes of me) but riders will take note of who is doing what. It is in their nature. They are speed merchants. Who is the fastest matters to them, not in terms of the actual meeting, but almost as a matter of pride. It's in their dna. Once had a heated discussion with Tony Rickardsson at the only FIM Gala Dinner I have attended. He was an ardent fan of transponders. Believed that everyone was interested in times. Tried to argue that fans don't care whether a race lasts 59.0, 59.2 or 59.8 seconds. It is the entertainment provided in the race no matter its duration that matters. He wasn't convinced... by a long way!

And, of course, transponders will have a value on race-day. 

[iwright71]

20 hours ago, Mark said:

Past stats are probably worthless.  They give the winning gate but there is no record of who was leading after the first bend.  That must be a better indictor of which gate was the best for starting.   Many riders come from behind to win a race - but this doesn't make there gate the best option.

So you would plump for 2 outside gates at Krsko ? obviously with stats being worthless. At  some tracks there are grave yard gates. All the riders know them

Edited February 10, 2019 by iwright71

[iwright71]

1 hour ago, PHILIPRISING said:

BECAUSE the riders want it. Maybe of no interest or value to fans (including the likes of me) but riders will take note of who is doing what. It is in their nature. They are speed merchants. Who is the fastest matters to them, not in terms of the actual meeting, but almost as a matter of pride. It's in their dna. Once had a heated discussion with Tony Rickardsson at the only FIM Gala Dinner I have attended. He was an ardent fan of transponders. Believed that everyone was interested in times. Tried to argue that fans don't care whether a race lasts 59.0, 59.2 or 59.8 seconds. It is the entertainment provided in the race no matter its duration that matters. He wasn't convinced... by a long way!

And, of course, transponders will have a value on race-day. 

Got no problem with transponders  being used just not this Mickey Mouse qualifying system which some weeks some riders won't even be there to participate in

[teaboy279]

Don't really get the negativity (typical speedway mentality tbh), this can surely have no negative effects? It just makes the practice session that little more interesting.

As it stood your starting number was a completed lottery and if you got the graveyard gate twice you was hampered from the start. At least now riders can do something to affect their starting positions. Let's not forget they are still choosing 24 hours before the event so even first pick won't guarantee the best gate twice, much like getting last pick might not guarantee a graveyard twice (krsko last four picks are gonna be a nightmare).

Really all it is, is a bit of added fun for the event. I ve yet to do a GP and not go to practice as for me it's all part of the experience. Picking the 3 or 4 fastest riders to have a flutter on then find none of them make the semis a day later....

A bonus championship point, and a cash prize should be enough to ensure everyone goes flat out, moving forward.

I don't really see how riders can finish just behind a rival to pick gate choice in their head to head. Times over 1 lap will be so close that the slightest roll out the throttle would see you fall from the front to the very back. In the example given a few pages back Zmarzlik would need to manage to finish a place or two behind Tai to gain any real chance of having an advantage.

As I say I don't see it doing any harm, just gives extra interest to the Friday session.

[Mark]

3 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

BECAUSE the riders want it. Maybe of no interest or value to fans (including the likes of me) but riders will take note of who is doing what. It is in their nature. They are speed merchants. Who is the fastest matters to them, not in terms of the actual meeting, but almost as a matter of pride. It's in their dna. Once had a heated discussion with Tony Rickardsson at the only FIM Gala Dinner I have attended. He was an ardent fan of transponders. Believed that everyone was interested in times. Tried to argue that fans don't care whether a race lasts 59.0, 59.2 or 59.8 seconds. It is the entertainment provided in the race no matter its duration that matters. He wasn't convinced... by a long way!

And, of course, transponders will have a value on race-day. 

I asked for an advantage of timed practise.   Riders wanting it is a preference but I can't work out what advantage it gives them.  Reckon when they spend a few Friday's watching a tractor grade the track after each one minute time trial they'll soon get fed up.    Agree with the use on race day fopr close finishers or jumping a start. 

[PHILIPRISING]

1 minute ago, Mark said:

I asked for an advantage of timed practise.   Riders wanting it is a preference but I can't work out what advantage it gives them.  Reckon when they spend a few Friday's watching a tractor grade the track after each one minute time trial they'll soon get fed up.    Agree with the use on race day fopr close finishers or jumping a start. 

BECAUSE riders feel that it helps them determine the performance of various bikes. 

[Mark]

2 hours ago, iwright71 said:

So you would plump for 2 outside gates at Krsko ? obviously with stats being worthless. At  some tracks there are grave yard gates. All the riders know them

You are right.    I should have said stats on most tracks are worthless as a couple of trappers paradise tracks will have a large bias.    But I still stand by the point that only recording who wins a race and from which gate is worthless in any race where over taking has been seen.     

[Dornier]

So !   When its a close finish its the rider who gets his ponder over the line first who wins and not the rider who gets his front wheel over first...

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

16 minutes ago, Dornier fixer said:

So !   When its a close finish its the rider who gets his ponder over the line first who wins and not the rider who gets his front wheel over first...

If you are using the transponders to decide close finishes it has to be 

[Mark]

47 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

If you are using the transponders to decide close finishes it has to be 

will have to be exactly same placement on every bike.   maybe on the front wheel cover providing they are all standard  length      I foresee a big can of worms being opened.

[SPEEDY69]

19 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

BECAUSE riders feel that it helps them determine the performance of various bikes. 

And that's where it falls down.  This makes an almighty assumption that everything else on the comparable laps stayed the same i.e. the path of the bike around the track, the way the rider controlled the throttle, the wind resistance (which includes rider body and head positioning).   I think if they could be made for false starts, results of races and to give fans MPH figures of riders at set points on the track then that would bring value to fans but I see them of limited value to riders.

[f-s-p]

18 hours ago, Mark said:

will have to be exactly same placement on every bike.   maybe on the front wheel cover providing they are all standard  length      I foresee a big can of worms being opened.

If you mean a mudguard, that could fall. Not sure if its a direct disquali for that though.

[Mark]

2 minutes ago, f-s-p said:

If you mean a mudguard, that could fall. Not sure if its a direct disquali for that though.

where will the transponder be fitted to make sure everyone gets the same deal ?   if the referee is using the transponder to determine who wins in a close finish it opens a can of worms if two bikes have a transponder fitted in a different position on each bike.   

For recording individual lap times it could be put anywhere on the bike.  Assume the timing starts when the transponder goes over the start line by sending a signal to a fixed point and the same happens to finish the lap.

[Humphrey Appleby]

On 2/10/2019 at 11:41 PM, PHILIPRISING said:

BECAUSE the riders want it. Maybe of no interest or value to fans (including the likes of me) but riders will take note of who is doing what. It is in their nature. They are speed merchants. Who is the fastest matters to them, not in terms of the actual meeting, but almost as a matter of pride. It's in their dna. Once had a heated discussion with Tony Rickardsson at the only FIM Gala Dinner I have attended. He was an ardent fan of transponders. Believed that everyone was interested in times. Tried to argue that fans don't care whether a race lasts 59.0, 59.2 or 59.8 seconds. It is the entertainment provided in the race no matter its duration that matters. He wasn't convinced... by a long way!

Transponders are long overdue. Race times are not all that important in speedway, but if you're going to record them then it's ridiculous that speedway is still using old fashioned methods. Transponders are also advantageous for determining close finishes though, and would allow unreliable starting tapes to be done away with. 

As for 'qualifying' in speedway - pretty pointless. Speedway isn't about lap times, but position in a race, and the audience knowing that a rider has gone one-tenth quicker than another during the last lap doesn't really tell you anything when you can see all the riders out on track for yourself.

If the riders really do want it, then it just proves you should never ask sportspeople on how to run their sport. If you want to make qualifying exciting (or force riders to turn up), then have a few races to determines who gets the favourable starting positions. 

[Vince]

20 hours ago, Dornier fixer said:

So !   When its a close finish its the rider who gets his ponder over the line first who wins and not the rider who gets his front wheel over first...

In MX and Flat track at least the transponders are all fitted on the top of the left fork leg between the yokes and everybody has to fit them in the same place. There are two wires about a foot apart in the ground and the transponder is recorded by them so instead of the front wheel it will be the top of the fork leg or for spectating purposes the handlebars are close enough.

Can't see them being used for jump starts as that is another system and probably an expensive one.

[f-s-p]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

where will the transponder be fitted to make sure everyone gets the same deal ?   if the referee is using the transponder to determine who wins in a close finish it opens a can of worms if two bikes have a transponder fitted in a different position on each bike.   

For recording individual lap times it could be put anywhere on the bike.  Assume the timing starts when the transponder goes over the start line by sending a signal to a fixed point and the same happens to finish the lap.

Inside the fork cover that is supplied by BSI and cant be fiddled with. I said so earlier.

EDIT: or if the system is rfid based you put the sticker on top of the front axle to the outside fork.

Edited February 11, 2019 by f-s-p

[f-s-p]

What about riders having engines just for fridays time trials... One for use, one spare both built for that one minute fast one and then serviced for the next round??? They’d cost 5500€ each if I’d buy them.

[Najjer]

On 2/10/2019 at 6:15 PM, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

If you are using the transponders to decide close finishes it has to be 

Surely it's time based - It wouldn't matter if one person had his transponder on the front forks and the other on the back mudguard... The time for it to get around the track would be the same time.