stevebrum Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 5 hours ago, BWitcher said: Doesn't come remotely close to 1993. Not even in the same conversation. Indeed you could say Wolves were lucky to even be in the final, the Lindgren/Bjerre incident at Belle Vue could have gone either way exclusion wise. Wolves didn't finish top of the league either. The circumstances of 1993 will never be repeated. It was just my opinion that I agreed with the poster. I didn’t say that it was the definitive answer to the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 34 minutes ago, stevebrum said: It was just my opinion that I agreed with the poster. I didn’t say that it was the definitive answer to the topic. So your opinion is a team that didn't even finish top of the regular standings is the most unlucky team ever? As nonsense goes.. that is up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 hours ago, BWitcher said: So your opinion is a team that didn't even finish top of the regular standings is the most unlucky team ever? As nonsense goes.. that is up there. So you're saying a team who didn't finish top of the regular standings can't be the most unlucky team ever? That would rule out Wolves '93, as well as many of the other leading candidates, such as Belle Vue '78, Harringay '53 and Cradley Heath '82. Not sure I agree with you there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, lucifer sam said: So you're saying a team who didn't finish top of the regular standings can't be the most unlucky team ever? That would rule out Wolves '93, as well as many of the other leading candidates, such as Belle Vue '78, Harringay '53 and Cradley Heath '82. Not sure I agree with you there. Given as the 'bad luck' was after the regular standings ended. Play-offs is a completely different animal to the league based seasons. A team pretty much unaffected by injury but didn't top the regular standings and losing in the play offs isn't close to 'most unlucky team ever'. Had said team finished top by some distance and then injuries struck.. different story. Were they unlucky? Yes. Most unlucky ever.. not even close. As already stated, they were lucky to even be in the final. Edited February 20, 2019 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 19 hours ago, BWitcher said: So your opinion is a team that didn't even finish top of the regular standings is the most unlucky team ever? As nonsense goes.. that is up there. If the thread was titled most unlucky team ever you might have a point. Its not the definitive most unlucky team ever thread, maybe set one up to prove your point. There are many examples of unfortunate teams throughout the years, as evidenced on this thread. All are valid reasons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted February 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 Has to be the most unfortunate team pre-Play-offs, over a full season. The Play-Off system only becomes important in the latter stages and perhaps being unfortunate in that is like being unlucky in the KO Cup Final. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, stevebrum said: If the thread was titled most unlucky team ever you might have a point. Its not the definitive most unlucky team ever thread, maybe set one up to prove your point. There are many examples of unfortunate teams throughout the years, as evidenced on this thread. All are valid reasons. Don't need to. If you cannot understand English, that is your problem. "MOST unfortunate team." The word ever isn't needed. The thread isn't asking for 'unfortunate teams'.. its asking for the MOST unfortunate team. So toddle on and start your own thread about teams who highly fortunate to reach a play off final and then had an injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, BWitcher said: Don't need to. If you cannot understand English, that is your problem. "MOST unfortunate team." The word ever isn't needed. The thread isn't asking for 'unfortunate teams'.. its asking for the MOST unfortunate team. So toddle on and start your own thread about teams who highly fortunate to reach a play off final and then had an injury. How about this then. Swindon were a most unfortunate team in 2015. I'm pretty sure they would have won the league if Darcy Ward hadn't been injured. That was a most unfortunate accident. Edited February 22, 2019 by Grachan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Grachan said: How about this then. Swindon were a most unfortunate team in 2015. I'm pretty sure they would have won the league if Darcy Ward hadn't been injured. That was a most unfortunate accident. Wolves '93 had one misfortune after another but were still there and in with a shout in their last match, the last heat. There were so many things that went against the team. They would have chalked up another title but had several really influential riders taken out when it was really only a matter of time before the title was clinched. At the death, their leading light (Sam Ermolenko) was sidelined in the first race of the match against Bradford - a week before the decider vs. Belle Vue. Wolves needed just the aggregate bonus point against the Yorkshire men to lift their second title in three years. They would have breezed it with Ermolenko. Seven days later, in the decider against the Aces, without the expected maximum Ermolenko would have pocketed, and the added points he would have prized from lesser men, Wolves would have just about beaten the Aces and won the Championship. Let's not also forget that Stephen Morris, Wolves' reserve, had a third-placed point taken off him after he had fallen and received outside assistance in that match (vs. the Aces). So many things conspired against them that you can't compare with the Play-Off system, which nullifies being the best team in the table matches and comes down to nerves, how riders fair on the opposing tracks in those semis and the Play-Off Final two legs. A team that is being considered the most unfortunate because it lost the title over 30 Heats of a Play-Off Final cannot be put in the same argument. Getting to the Play-Off is one hurdle, even as table toppers. But the competition more or less starts again for the aggregate matches. The league system pre-2002 Play-offs was different - like the one-off world final is to the GPs. From memory, three other instances of misfortune stick out before the Play-Offs arrived 17 years ago. Cradley Heath were surely robbed of the title in 1982 when Penhall quit. Belle Vue were going full steam ahead for the title in 1978 when they lost Alan Wilkinson, the same season Hull were serious contenders before Joe Owen was injured. Although losing these men was influential - Wolves '93 were like the determined competitor in the game show we've all seen who is walking the pole while opponents are trying to knock them off with a huge foamy implement. They stood up to every obstacle - right until the death. Down went Jones, Dukie and Correy, and remember, Wolves couldn't rely on guests to see them over the line as this rule was for your top man and nobody else. So they got up off their backsides and brought in new men. Indeed, they could only use guest the once - Henka Gustafsson for "Sudden Sam" on the night they finally lost grasp on the title. Henka dropped two points to the Aces - I'd bet tonight's takeaway that Sam would have got an untroubled full 18. We all know what his presence in the team would have done to those around him. I just think Wolves suffered the perfect storm in '93. And, remember, I was a Belle Vue fan in the Midlands that night. Edited February 22, 2019 by moxey63 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 57 minutes ago, moxey63 said: Wolves '93 had one misfortune after another but were still there and in with a shout in their last match, the last heat. There were so many things that went against the team. I don't think anyone has argued against Wolverhampton being extremely unlucky in 1993, and very possibly being the most unfortunate team of all. Wolves were extraordinarily unfortunate, although fair play to Belle Vue, who rose to the challenge on the final night, especially their lesser lights. But BWitcher seems unable to acknowledge alternate answers. Every team mentioned on this thread is valid to a certain degree. It's a discussion and there is no one right or wrong answer. Here's another to throw into the mix. Oxford (the National League champions of 1964) were well on their way to winning the first British League in 1965, when No 1 Ron How was injured in a GB v Russia test match at the start of July. In a season where there was no guests and no rider replacement (e.g. no chance of bringing a rider of the calibre of Henka Gustafsson to score paid 16), they were allocated a rider of junior standard, Jimmy Heard, to replace one of the best riders in the country. Somehow, Oxford remained in title contention until September, and finished fourth, just seven points behind champions West Ham. As well as Hammers finished the season, it's easy to locate four additional matches that Cheetahs would have won with Ron How in their side. I'd still say Wolves '93 were even more unlucky, but if anyone said Oxford '65, it is also a valid answer. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 58 minutes ago, lucifer sam said: But BWitcher seems unable to acknowledge alternate answers. Every team mentioned on this thread is valid to a certain degree. It's a discussion and there is no one right or wrong answer. It's a shame you can't post objectively regarding my posts. First of all you falsely accused me of having sour grapes., a claim easily dismissed. Now you're accusing me of being unable to accept 'alternate answers'. Again a claim easily dismissed. I've not questioned almost all of the alternate ones.. the only one I have questioned is the ridiculous one put forward of Wolves 2017. You will also note that Moxey has been very clear in not accepting it either. Oxford 1965 does indeed sound a very valid argument, as does Cradley 82. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 5 hours ago, Grachan said: How about this then. Swindon were a most unfortunate team in 2015. I'm pretty sure they would have won the league if Darcy Ward hadn't been injured. That was a most unfortunate accident. It won’t matter because Bwitcher has already declared only one team deserves the MOST unfortunate team. So no other option is valid. meanwhile its good to read other versions of teams that suffered misfortune over the years. I don’t believe either that teams from the play off era can’t be compared to teams prior the era. An unlucky team is an unlucky team. One could argue that Mildenhall were ‘unfortunate’ that there were play offs in 2018 having been unbeaten all season long and then lost one rider after another when it mattered. Its all about opinions anyway so it’s good to read other view points. Wolves 93 may well be the most unfortunate team in history , depends on your viewpoint - thankfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 hours ago, lucifer sam said: I don't think anyone has argued against Wolverhampton being extremely unlucky in 1993, and very possibly being the most unfortunate team of all. Wolves were extraordinarily unfortunate, although fair play to Belle Vue, who rose to the challenge on the final night, especially their lesser lights. But BWitcher seems unable to acknowledge alternate answers. Every team mentioned on this thread is valid to a certain degree. It's a discussion and there is no one right or wrong answer. Here's another to throw into the mix. Oxford (the National League champions of 1964) were well on their way to winning the first British League in 1965, when No 1 Ron How was injured in a GB v Russia test match at the start of July. In a season where there was no guests and no rider replacement (e.g. no chance of bringing a rider of the calibre of Henka Gustafsson to score paid 16), they were allocated a rider of junior standard, Jimmy Heard, to replace one of the best riders in the country. Somehow, Oxford remained in title contention until September, and finished fourth, just seven points behind champions West Ham. As well as Hammers finished the season, it's easy to locate four additional matches that Cheetahs would have won with Ron How in their side. I'd still say Wolves '93 were even more unlucky, but if anyone said Oxford '65, it is also a valid answer. Point well made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 41 minutes ago, stevebrum said: It won’t matter because Bwitcher has already declared only one team deserves the MOST unfortunate team. So no other option is valid. meanwhile its good to read other versions of teams that suffered misfortune over the years. I don’t believe either that teams from the play off era can’t be compared to teams prior the era. An unlucky team is an unlucky team. One could argue that Mildenhall were ‘unfortunate’ that there were play offs in 2018 having been unbeaten all season long and then lost one rider after another when it mattered. Its all about opinions anyway so it’s good to read other view points. Wolves 93 may well be the most unfortunate team in history , depends on your viewpoint - thankfully. No I haven't, the fact that you and Lucifer Sam have to fabricate things speaks volumes. I've simply dismissed your ridiculous pick. Wolves 2017 were extremely lucky to have even been in the final. They don't belong in this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, BWitcher said: No I haven't, the fact that you and Lucifer Sam have to fabricate things speaks volumes. I've simply dismissed your ridiculous pick. Wolves 2017 were extremely lucky to have even been in the final. They don't belong in this discussion. Um, didn't a Swindon fan (Auntie Doris) suggest Wolves 2017? And it is valid choice, because Wolves took a fabulous victory in the first leg at Blunsdon, only to be missing the two best riders around their track, thus making them vulnerable at home. It wouldn't be my first pick personally (just as Reading 2006 weren't, for the reasons I stated), but I respect the view of the person who put it forward. To say "they don't belong in this discussion" is a bit silly. And Stevebrum also makes an excellent choice in Mildenhall 2018. They were very unlucky indeed. Edited February 22, 2019 by lucifer sam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, lucifer sam said: Um, didn't a Swindon fan (Auntie Doris) suggest Wolves 2017? And it is valid choice, because Wolves took a fabulous victory in the first leg at Blunsdon, only to be missing the two best riders around their track, thus making them vulnerable at home. It wouldn't be my first pick personally (just as Reading 2006 weren't, for the reasons I stated), but I respect the view of the person who put it forward. To say "they don't belong in this discussion" is a bit silly. And Stevebrum also makes an excellent choice in Mildenhall 2018. They were very unlucky indeed. Agreed regarding Mildenhall. Wolves were already missing their two 'best' riders when they took that victory at Blunsdon. Nothing changed between that match and the 2nd leg. Were they unfortunate to have those two injuries? Yes they were. However, that is balanced out by them being extremely fortunate to even have made the final as most agreed at the time that Lindgren should have been excluded in his collision with Bjerre in the semi. That is why, in my opinion, that particular example doesn't come close to being in the frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 hours ago, BWitcher said: No I haven't, the fact that you and Lucifer Sam have to fabricate things speaks volumes. I've simply dismissed your ridiculous pick. Wolves 2017 were extremely lucky to have even been in the final. They don't belong in this discussion. It was auntie Doris who suggested Wolves 2017, so best try not fabricating things either. i know you have dismissed my pick (you know the one that aunt doris made, strangely not quoting that one tho) likewise I have dismissed your authority on who deserves MOST unfortunate. Any team being discussed in this thread belongs there. Just because you decide they don’t is of no importance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Bloke Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) I think the Stars where very unlucky in 2018. After over 50 years of trying to win the top division.They hauled themselves from bottom of the league, to winning it by 6 points. On the way they had the best away record in the league to boot. Only to Loose free scoring reserve MPT in that "iffy" decision at Poole in leg 1 of the play offs. Then before leg 2 lost NKI as well. Add for the first and last time Poole was allowed to use a guest rider. not Poole's fault, but the BSPA..….. Well you know the rest Edited February 22, 2019 by Bald Bloke 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boffy Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Regarding Wolves `93 I personally think the meeting at Cradley was the most unfortunate part of the season... Mikael Karlsson (Max) making his debut for Wolves was sublime in his first two races only to be horrifically fenced in his third race (if my memory serves) by a Cradley rider as he was about to pass him on the run in to the line....Wolves were 8 points up in the meeting but due to Mikaels withdrawal Cradley were able to clinch a victory...For me this was the biggest turning point in a season of terrible luck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Boffy said: Regarding Wolves `93 I personally think the meeting at Cradley was the most unfortunate part of the season... Mikael Karlsson (Max) making his debut for Wolves was sublime in his first two races only to be horrifically fenced in his third race (if my memory serves) by a Cradley rider as he was about to pass him on the run in to the line....Wolves were 8 points up in the meeting but due to Mikaels withdrawal Cradley were able to clinch a victory...For me this was the biggest turning point in a season of terrible luck Spot on. He'd beaten Hancock and Hamill in his first two races I think? Morten Andersen was the rider in question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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