Time British Speedway went AMATEUR

[Hawk127]

2 hours ago, Vince said:

Like myself nobody tells your son when and where he can race. Nobody fines him if he doesn't fancy riding that day. Nobody will force him to ride in conditions he thinks are dangerous. Nobody expects him to travel the length and breadth of the country often at little notice in order to race in the middle of the working week.

No other motorsport is a genuine team sport and therefore Speedway riders are a special case because there are expectations put on them that aren't put on other racers.

Agree with this except that the sport has done away with individual meetings, open track licences etc. and therefore is a closed shop. Ride for a club and do as they say or your options are limited to non existent. The riders are not a special case it is those in charge who limit or restrict the options for young talent to be involved in competitive racing which is what they need to really test them and they do this by saying in the main, it is team racing or nothing. You could also blame the clubs who vote through decisions at the AGM and cannot see further then the next team meeting. Without the open meetings and/or a decent second half to the main match in which it is open to all comers of a reasonable standard where they can race against more  experienced riders, the talent that is around will take much longer to come through the ranks and probably lose the will to live before they ever make a mark in the sport.

[Mr Snackette]

4 hours ago, Vince said:

Like myself nobody tells your son when and where he can race. Nobody fines him if he doesn't fancy riding that day. Nobody will force him to ride in conditions he thinks are dangerous. Nobody expects him to travel the length and breadth of the country often at little notice in order to race in the middle of the working week.

No other motorsport is a genuine team sport and therefore Speedway riders are a special case because there are expectations put on them that aren't put on other racers.

The fragility of your argument is that "nobody tells" a  speedway rider that he has to sign a contract, thereby facing the type of sanctions that you outlined.

THAT'S THE CHOICE HE MAKES!

At the end of the day it is becoming increasingly apparent that the sport in the UK can no longer sustain the amount of money going out of the sport to fund riders. 

In fact my son DOES  "travel the length and breadth of the country", but at his expense and with his sponsors support. He the pays to compete, and if he picks up the odd bit of prize money and the occasional trophy, this is just the icing on the cake. His real motivation is the opportunity he has to participate in a sport he loves!

So I ask the question again: 

WHAT MAKES A SPEEDWAY RIDER SO BLOODY SPECIAL?

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Mr Snackette

[Vince]

9 hours ago, Mr Snackette said:

The fragility of your argument is that "nobody tells" a  speedway rider that he has to sign a contract, thereby facing the type of sanctions that you outlined.

THAT'S THE CHOICE HE MAKES!

At the end of the day it is becoming increasingly apparent that the sport in the UK can no longer sustain the amount of money going out of the sport to fund riders. 

In fact my son DOES  "travel the length and breadth of the country", but at his expense and with his sponsors support. He the pays to compete, and if he picks up the odd bit of prize money and the occasional trophy, this is just the icing on the cake. His real motivation is the opportunity he has to participate in a sport he loves!

So I ask the question again: 

WHAT MAKES A SPEEDWAY RIDER SO BLOODY SPECIAL?

 

THEY MAKE THAT CHOICE ONLY BECAUSE THEY CAN AFFORD TO AS THEY GET PAID FOR IT.

IF THEY DON'T GET PAID TEAM SPEEDWAY WILL DIE BECAUSE IF THEY CHOOSE TO RIDE AS AMATUERS THE WILL DO SO LOCALLY AT WEEKENDS.

TEAM RACING IS WHAT MAKES SPEEDWAY SPECIAL, BEING AVAILABLE TO RIDE ANY DAY ANYWHERE IS WHAT MAKES A SPEEDWAY RIDER SO BLOODY SPECIAL!

DOES WRITING IN LARGE BOLD CAPITALS MAKE EITHER OF OUR POINTS MORE RELEVANT?

I too travel the length and breadth of the country racing, however it is completely my decision when and where I ride just like it is your sons and I'm not riding several times some weeks. That is why we pay to race and in my case there is no prize money at all. I too do so because I love the sport I choose to participate in. However that is nothing to do with why Speedway riders need at least some payment as I explained in my last post. What the sport can afford is a different matter but almost nobody would be ale to afford to ride league Speedway unpaid.

[Ray Stadia]

1 hour ago, Vince said:

THEY MAKE THAT CHOICE ONLY BECAUSE THEY CAN AFFORD TO AS THEY GET PAID FOR IT.

IF THEY DON'T GET PAID TEAM SPEEDWAY WILL DIE BECAUSE IF THEY CHOOSE TO RIDE AS AMATUERS THE WILL DO SO LOCALLY AT WEEKENDS.

TEAM RACING IS WHAT MAKES SPEEDWAY SPECIAL, BEING AVAILABLE TO RIDE ANY DAY ANYWHERE IS WHAT MAKES A SPEEDWAY RIDER SO BLOODY SPECIAL!

DOES WRITING IN LARGE BOLD CAPITALS MAKE EITHER OF OUR POINTS MORE RELEVANT?

I too travel the length and breadth of the country racing, however it is completely my decision when and where I ride just like it is your sons and I'm not riding several times some weeks. That is why we pay to race and in my case there is no prize money at all. I too do so because I love the sport I choose to participate in. However that is nothing to do with why Speedway riders need at least some payment as I explained in my last post. What the sport can afford is a different matter but almost nobody would be ale to afford to ride league Speedway unpaid.

Writing in bold is good though, for those of us with dodgy minces! But 'squaring the circle' is what this thread is all about. Riders have financial needs, yes, but there are not enough punters or promoters with deep enough pockets to meet the costs. So speedway either limps along as it has done and hopes a miracle happens or in other words, speedway buries its head in the sand or someone or some thing, grasps the nettle and starts to think outside the box. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Ray Stadia

[Sings4Speedway]

As has been often covered Speedway has such a unique setup that it makes it very hard to implement a one size fits all approach. We have tracks that are owned outright and used solely for Speedway, owned but multi use, leased solely for speedway and leased dual purpose. The majority of stadia require Speedway to continue to bring any value to those venues. Yet we are in a situation whereby the promotions running are struggling to stay in business. That is what all Speedway teams need to be treated as, a business and that needs to be able to at the very least break even year on year. Currently the sport relies on a few fortunate individuals who are able to plough huge amounts of their own money into clubs to keep them afloat, i think everyone is aware that is not in any way a sustainable business model.

[Mr Snackette]

2 hours ago, Vince said:

THEY MAKE THAT CHOICE ONLY BECAUSE THEY CAN AFFORD TO AS THEY GET PAID FOR IT.

IF THEY DON'T GET PAID TEAM SPEEDWAY WILL DIE BECAUSE IF THEY CHOOSE TO RIDE AS AMATUERS THE WILL DO SO LOCALLY AT WEEKENDS.

TEAM RACING IS WHAT MAKES SPEEDWAY SPECIAL, BEING AVAILABLE TO RIDE ANY DAY ANYWHERE IS WHAT MAKES A SPEEDWAY RIDER SO BLOODY SPECIAL!

DOES WRITING IN LARGE BOLD CAPITALS MAKE EITHER OF OUR POINTS MORE RELEVANT?

I too travel the length and breadth of the country racing, however it is completely my decision when and where I ride just like it is your sons and I'm not riding several times some weeks. That is why we pay to race and in my case there is no prize money at all. I too do so because I love the sport I choose to participate in. However that is nothing to do with why Speedway riders need at least some payment as I explained in my last post. What the sport can afford is a different matter but almost nobody would be ale to afford to ride league Speedway unpaid.

You're right, writing in large bold capital letters doesn't make any comments anymore relevant than anyone else's.

Sadly your comments, regardless of their size, are at best confused. 

You say: "That is why we pay to race and in my case there is no prize money at all" If only that were true, then speedway may not be in the mess it is!

[Mr Snackette]

1 hour ago, Ray Stadia said:

Writing in bold is good though, for those of us with dodgy minces! But 'squaring the circle' is what this thread is all about. Riders have financial needs, yes, but there are not enough punters or promoters with deep enough pockets to meet the costs. So speedway either limps along as it has done and hopes a miracle happens or in other words, speedway buries its head in the sand or someone or some thing, grasps the nettle and starts to think outside the box. 

Unfortunately Ray, anyone with an ounce of common sense understands that speedway in the UK is living beyond its means. One of the key reasons for this deficit is the silly money that is paid to riders. Unfortunately people like Vince do think they are "special" and his failure to understand a relatively simple concept only goes to underline it!

But I don't blame Vince. I can't blame him, if someone else is foolhardy enough to pay him to ride, even though his/her business can't afford to do so.  That just illustrates their (not Vince's) financial irresponsibility.

What it needs is for owners and promoters to get together and say: "You can ride for my team, however I'm not going to pay you." As Vince has already ceded that he "do(es) so because I love the sport I choose to participate in..." The choice is his, just like my son's. He can accept the offer which will enable him to “participate in the sport he loves”..  OR DO ONE!!

[Ray Stadia]

49 minutes ago, Mr Snackette said:

Unfortunately Ray, anyone with an ounce of common sense understands that speedway in the UK is living beyond its means. One of the key reasons for this deficit is the silly money that is paid to riders. Unfortunately people like Vince do think they are "special" and his failure to understand a relatively simple concept only goes to underline it!

But I don't blame Vince. I can't blame him, if someone else is foolhardy enough to pay him to ride, even though his/her business can't afford to do so.  That just illustrates their (not Vince's) financial irresponsibility.

What it needs is for owners and promoters to get together and say: "You can ride for my team, however I'm not going to pay you." As Vince has already ceded that he "do(es) so because I love the sport I choose to participate in..." The choice is his, just like my son's. He can accept the offer which will enable him to “participate in the sport he loves”..  OR DO ONE!!

In fairness to Vince, it is his son who used to ride speedway. It seems as though Vince may participate in another weekend type motor sport, maybe pre-65 scrambles, where you probably don't get prize money, but may get a cup/shield etc, as are many amateur motor sports. I think you could run speedway on an amateur basis and still have teams. Often amateur participants are more dedicated to their sport, so the argument that you wouldn't get the commitment from the team, I think is unfounded. In any case, if you had a team of amateurs, you could afford to have plenty of reserves, for the occasions when riders are unable to race.  

[waytogo28]

18 hours ago, cityrebel said:

There is a lot said about speedways aging fan base, but very little about the ancient promoters running the sport. What's needed is some younger people with fresh ideas to shake the whole thing up.

Nobody in their right mind under 40 would "invest" in speedway ( unless they come from a wealthy speedway family ) as there is no return in such a sport, other than the imagined kudos that anyone wishes to purchase by putting money into a UK speedway team. You would need to double the average crowd at almost every UK track to get into the black! Or know of a wealthy business person who wishes to buy the kudos of being the main sponsor.

[B.V 72]

I have no answers to how to solve speedways problems and it breaks my heart to see the sport I love dying before my eyes.I read these threads in hope that someone will come up with some great idea that will benefit the sport but up to now I have read the odd snippet of an idea that I think may help the sport a little but nothing as a whole that i m o might help the sport back on its feet

The current popular idea on here is low cost amateur speedway but don't we or near as damit already have this option now in National league speedway.I am lucky enough to have both options at Belle vue and I have a season ticket for both,now I enjoy both but if you ask me to give one up it would be the National league as the Prem league provides far better racing overall and I would choose to pay double the price because it is a far better product even now in its watered down state.

So my point is that the option of both Prem and Nat league/cheap speedway is there for every Belle vue fan now. But the Aces the double in price product still gets a crowd five to six times larger than the Colts.So is amateur/cheap speedway the answer to save British speedway I think not as the answer is already here dispite the more affordable/cheap option already being available a massive percentage of Belle vue fans still choose to pay the much higher price for Prem league speedway.

I am not saying every thing is fine the way it is and I m o Belle vue still do not have enough Prem league fans to maintain the sport for long in Manchester.All i am saying is that there are far more fans that have no interest in lower class /cheap speedway than Prem league speedway. So to me going amateur will not help keep speedway running in Manchester.

Sadly my thoughts are now to enjoy every speedway meeting I can while I can,and hope that the economy improves so that people can afford to go to speedway every week again instead of just turning up for bank holiday and playoff meetings.Because the fans are still out there but a lot of them have far less disposable income than they have had in the past and they  have to pick and choose what they spend it on they can no longer do it all and it would seem speedway is well down on most peoples list of what to spend it on.This is to me the main cause of speedways problems and while it continues no mater what they do speedway will stay in big trouble and we all have to keep our fingers crossed that our own club is one of the clubs that can survive.

[Ray Stadia]

7 minutes ago, B.V 72 said:

I have no answers to how to solve speedways problems and it breaks my heart to see the sport I love dying before my eyes.I read these threads in hope that someone will come up with some great idea that will benefit the sport but up to now I have read the odd snippet of an idea that I think may help the sport a little but nothing as a whole that i m o might help the sport back on its feet

The current popular idea on here is low cost amateur speedway but don't we or near as damit already have this option now in National league speedway.I am lucky enough to have both options at Belle vue and I have a season ticket for both,now I enjoy both but if you ask me to give one up it would be the National league as the Prem league provides far better racing overall and I would choose to pay double the price because it is a far better product even now in its watered down state.

So my point is that the option of both Prem and Nat league/cheap speedway is there for every Belle vue fan now. But the Aces the double in price product still gets a crowd five to six times larger than the Colts.So is amateur/cheap speedway the answer to save British speedway I think not as the answer is already here dispite the more affordable/cheap option already being available a massive percentage of Belle vue fans still choose to pay the much higher price for Prem league speedway.

I am not saying every thing is fine the way it is and I m o Belle vue still do not have enough Prem league fans to maintain the sport for long in Manchester.All i am saying is that there are far more fans that have no interest in lower class /cheap speedway than Prem league speedway. So to me going amateur will not help keep speedway running in Manchester.

Sadly my thoughts are now to enjoy every speedway meeting I can while I can,and hope that the economy improves so that people can afford to go to speedway every week again instead of just turning up for bank holiday and playoff meetings.Because the fans are still out there but a lot of them have far less disposable income than they have had in the past and they  have to pick and choose what they spend it on they can no longer do it all and it would seem speedway is well down on most peoples list of what to spend it on.This is to me the main cause of speedways problems and while it continues no mater what they do speedway will stay in big trouble and we all have to keep our fingers crossed that our own club is one of the clubs that can survive.

The trouble with what you say, is that Belle Vue's 'comfortable' position, is not felt by most other set-ups and let's be honest, it has been touch and go for even Belle Vue over the years. I think if you just think about your own speedway team, you run the risk of either being the 'last man standing' or you find what you thought was a safe and secure club, underneath is in serious problems. Not that I'm suggesting that is the case with Belle Vue. Where you are lucky though, is you have a great stadium and let's face it, it is dubbed a national speedway stadium, therefore, if speedway went amateur, your stadium would be great for different individual events and perhaps even a GP event! Which means you should still see plenty of quality action! 

[Sings4Speedway]

I appreciate the views of BV72 and the crowd approximations of the Belle Vue sides last season. The questions that will always remain a mystery are did either side break even independently? Do the Aces double entry fee and 5-6 times higher crowds generate any more money once wages are paid out vs the lower income but lower outgoings of the Colts?

What percentage of Aces fans do you think would attend Colts meetings if there were no Aces side running? Im sure there is a large quantity that do both already but would the 5 times extra all simply walk away? 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Sings4Speedway

[Vince]

1 hour ago, Mr Snackette said:

Unfortunately Ray, anyone with an ounce of common sense understands that speedway in the UK is living beyond its means. One of the key reasons for this deficit is the silly money that is paid to riders. Unfortunately people like Vince do think they are "special" and his failure to understand a relatively simple concept only goes to underline it!

But I don't blame Vince. I can't blame him, if someone else is foolhardy enough to pay him to ride, even though his/her business can't afford to do so.  That just illustrates their (not Vince's) financial irresponsibility.

What it needs is for owners and promoters to get together and say: "You can ride for my team, however I'm not going to pay you." As Vince has already ceded that he "do(es) so because I love the sport I choose to participate in..." The choice is his, just like my son's. He can accept the offer which will enable him to “participate in the sport he loves”..  OR DO ONE!!

I think you should probably read what is in my posts rather than what you think I'm saying.

I shall repeat without the completely unnecessary large bold lettering and keep it as simple as I can for you.

I don't do not get paid to ride because I do not ride Speedway. As I have said repeatedly just like your son I travel all over England and pay to race (in my case flat track). In Flat Track there is very rarely any prize money, if there was at 57 I wouldn't get a sniff at it. What is good though is that I only race weekends so can take a decent job and work around my sport.

My son did used to ride NL Speedway and as I have said elsewhere I financed him for 4 years and it took me the same amount of time afterwards to recover financially. We did all our own work on the bikes including my doing his engines so money wasn't going to tuners or on unnecessary go faster bits or bling. What hit hardest by a long way was the travelling costs and time away from work. My son riding Speedway cost far more than for the two of us to ride MX as we were doing previously or the two of us to do flat track as we do now. For most of that 4 years he was on NL base rate with Newport and the normal travelling allowance but it still cost a lot of money to ride for a team.

I agree that Speedway in the UK is living beyond it's means at the moment. I do not agree that you can have team Speedway without paying the riders because nobody in their right mind would pay to race in Berwick on a Saturday,  Newcastle on Monday and Somerset Friday when they could ride as an amateur at their local track on a weekend. There is also the small matter of finding work that allows you to meet that schedule then make re-scheduled rain offs at short notice. For far less money you have your choice of motorcycle sports that allow you to travel as far as you want to, race in conditions or on tracks that you like and never be forced to ride anywhere.

That is what your son does and what I do, we chose when and where we compete. Now I don't know your personal experience of finding the finances to ride Speedway but even when I was a youngster I ran out of money before I ran out of even my small talent. I have proven that I have a grasp of the realities so instead of trying to belittle my opinion let us know exactly what experience and figures you have to back up your case.

I still say that if you run Speedway as an amateur sport you will have exactly an extension of what you have now in amateur Speedway. That is riders competing mostly with their local clubs in various ability classes as individuals. If you have team racing it is generally those same riders split into groups and while fun for them it is nothing like league racing. In the main it won't matter because not many will pay to watch it and the tracks won't be able to meet the costs.

The costs of league Speedway have to be reduced or the income increased but it can no way survive if it doesn't at least go some way to covering the riders expenses.

[WalterPlinge]

1 hour ago, B.V 72 said:

But the Aces the double in price product still gets a crowd five to six times larger than the Colts.

If the Aces got a crowd 5 to 6 times that of Colts (2,500-3,000) then there would be no problems.

Sadly, I think you're way over-estimating the Aces crowd.  I doubt it's more than half what you think it is.

[B.V 72]

1 hour ago, Ray Stadia said:

The trouble with what you say, is that Belle Vue's 'comfortable' position, is not felt by most other set-ups and let's be honest, it has been touch and go for even Belle Vue over the years. I think if you just think about your own speedway team, you run the risk of either being the 'last man standing' or you find what you thought was a safe and secure club, underneath is in serious problems. Not that I'm suggesting that is the case with Belle Vue. Where you are lucky though, is you have a great stadium and let's face it, it is dubbed a national speedway stadium, therefore, if speedway went amateur, your stadium would be great for different individual events and perhaps even a GP event! Which means you should still see plenty of quality action! 

please read the post again where do I say that Belle vue is safe and comfortable.I say I will enjoy it while it lasts does that sound like someone who thinks his club is safe.Its about my opinion if amateur speedway will  work and nothing else.

Edited January 17, 2019 by B.V 72

[Ray Stadia]

49 minutes ago, Vince said:

I think you should probably read what is in my posts rather than what you think I'm saying.

I shall repeat without the completely unnecessary large bold lettering and keep it as simple as I can for you.

I don't do not get paid to ride because I do not ride Speedway. As I have said repeatedly just like your son I travel all over England and pay to race (in my case flat track). In Flat Track there is very rarely any prize money, if there was at 57 I wouldn't get a sniff at it. What is good though is that I only race weekends so can take a decent job and work around my sport.

My son did used to ride NL Speedway and as I have said elsewhere I financed him for 4 years and it took me the same amount of time afterwards to recover financially. We did all our own work on the bikes including my doing his engines so money wasn't going to tuners or on unnecessary go faster bits or bling. What hit hardest by a long way was the travelling costs and time away from work. My son riding Speedway cost far more than for the two of us to ride MX as we were doing previously or the two of us to do flat track as we do now. For most of that 4 years he was on NL base rate with Newport and the normal travelling allowance but it still cost a lot of money to ride for a team.

I agree that Speedway in the UK is living beyond it's means at the moment. I do not agree that you can have team Speedway without paying the riders because nobody in their right mind would pay to race in Berwick on a Saturday,  Newcastle on Monday and Somerset Friday when they could ride as an amateur at their local track on a weekend. There is also the small matter of finding work that allows you to meet that schedule then make re-scheduled rain offs at short notice. For far less money you have your choice of motorcycle sports that allow you to travel as far as you want to, race in conditions or on tracks that you like and never be forced to ride anywhere.

That is what your son does and what I do, we chose when and where we compete. Now I don't know your personal experience of finding the finances to ride Speedway but even when I was a youngster I ran out of money before I ran out of even my small talent. I have proven that I have a grasp of the realities so instead of trying to belittle my opinion let us know exactly what experience and figures you have to back up your case.

I still say that if you run Speedway as an amateur sport you will have exactly an extension of what you have now in amateur Speedway. That is riders competing mostly with their local clubs in various ability classes as individuals. If you have team racing it is generally those same riders split into groups and while fun for them it is nothing like league racing. In the main it won't matter because not many will pay to watch it and the tracks won't be able to meet the costs.

The costs of league Speedway have to be reduced or the income increased but it can no way survive if it doesn't at least go some way to covering the riders expenses.

If the sport is run on an amateur basis, it doesn't mean the riders can't earn, but they will earn according to their ability. And why does speedway need to run during the week? It can be run Friday night, anytime Saturday or anytime Sunday. Which would allow the riders to work or finish their education. Also, the country should be divided into regions, to reduce travelling costs. Another idea, if you could attract relatively local riders, why not all riders travel together or at least buddy up in groups.The bikes could be loaded into a large van or lorry and the riders travel by coach. What a great way to create team spirit! 

[Ray Stadia]

3 minutes ago, B.V 72 said:

please read the post again where do I say that Belle vue is safe and comfortable.I say I will enjoy it while it lasts does that sound like someone who thinks his club is safe.Its about my opinion if amateur speedway will and work nothing else.

Well, you have told us how things are at Belle Vue, but I can't see you have provided a 'blueprint' for the sport's survival as a whole, unless I have misinterpreted your post? Brave man buying 2 season tickets!  

[B.V 72]

you just don't read full posts do you.

10 minutes ago, Ray Stadia said:

Well, you have told us how things are at Belle Vue, but I can't see you have provided a 'blueprint' for the sport's survival as a whole, unless I have misinterpreted your post? Brave man buying 2 season tickets!  

you don't read full posts do you I say I have no answers the posts just about my opinion on amateur speedway,and a speedway forum is all about opinions for or against is it not.

The thread is call time british speedway went amateur not blueprint for the sports survival is it not.

Edited January 17, 2019 by B.V 72

[Sings4Speedway]

The difficult area for a 'blueprint' for the sports survival is should we be looking for a plan to sustain team racing or keep the discipline going? I can safely say that if i was going to even consider promotion it wouldn't be of any team but of one off events / possible series. Whatever level it would be at i would be looking to ensure entertainment was at the forefront. 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said:

The difficult area for a 'blueprint' for the sports survival is should we be looking for a plan to sustain team racing or keep the discipline going? I can safely say that if i was going to even consider promotion it wouldn't be of any team but of one off events / possible series. Whatever level it would be at i would be looking to ensure entertainment was at the forefront. 

Speedway as such is not dead. As an on-track spectacle it provides great entertainment. IMO what is dead is the continuation of team racing. What is needed - again IMO - is something similar to the race format they have in California.

League racing has failed in several countries - offhand I can think of the USA, South Africa, Holland, Australia. I think also in several East European countries?