TonyMac Posted January 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, PHILIPRISING said: PAIR of football boots costs a lot less than all the equipment a speedway rider needs.Plus they only play one day a week so having another job is relatively easy. A speedway rider needs to have a job which allows him considerable number of days off to accommodate various fixtures. No comparison. Phil, the point I was trying to make is that the non-league club I've referred to does not pay out more in player/manager/coaching staff wages than it takes in revenue, so its cloth is cut accordingly to ensure they remain in business. Just because - and we all agree - riders face increasing and high running costs, it doesn't mean promoters (and, indirectly, fans) should keep financing those overheads. If they do, there will be only one outcome: more and more tracks going the way of Rye House, Buxton and Workington, and whoever else is next... So, a combination of drastically reduced riders' costs, and in turn the wages they need to compete, is paramount if league speedway in the UK is to have a credible future. Edited January 15, 2019 by tmc 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 WOULD agree that it is necessary to reduce costs for riders and, as a consequence of that, to promoters. Rye House brought their own house down by providing ridiculous guarantees to three riders. When Chris Harris went to Poole he took a massive pay cut. Workington simply couldn't cope with a surfeit of home meetings and extensive payments to riders at the end of the season. There are moves afoot to help both riders and promoters to reduce their costs and ensure the viability of their business. Like all of us, income has to match expenditure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 4 hours ago, falcace said: Well done for supporting your son. Not all sporting parents are as supportive, so you deserve credit for letting him have a shot at it. But my answer would be for riders to get a trade then that fits with your sporting ambitions. Paint, decorate, plaster, labour...if you truly want to make it, you will do it. The same goes for any sport. Speedway does not owe anyone a living. Easily said but if you want a career in Speedway you'll generally be starting out at 16 by the latest. Try telling any company and /or college that you want an apprenticeship but you need to be able to take random days off to travel to tracks at the other end of the country. I'll pop in this week on Tuesday until midday as have I have track A that night Wednesday in all day then I'm off all day Thursday to go to track B. Then next week I'm in except for Monday and Friday as I have track C&D. Come September you'll only be able to give a few hours notice trying to make up for rain off's and if things are going well getting some guest rides. Or you might need 3 weeks off for your broken collarbone or worse 8 weeks of with a leg. But it's Ok next year will be much the same! Speedway doesn't owe anybody a living but who is going to race league Speedway as an amateur when they can race at weekends only and might as well if they can't get near covering their costs? The only reason for tramping around the country riding for a team is the chance you'll make it to a good enough level to make some sort of living during the season then you can bust a gut doing overtime at labouring or whatever to make enough money to equip yourself for the next season. That is the reality for far more riders than make a decent year round living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) It worries me that we have people in charge of clubs who constantly tell us they lost many thousands of pounds last season and yet carry on. Then you hear that Rye House, no better than a second-tier club but foolishly (perhaps)went into the top flight and who closed before finishing last season, offered ridiculous guarantees to riders. These are supposedly businessmen, who have made their fortunes away from speedway. I am not a businessman, but I wouldn 't even buy a season ticket in today's speedway climate. Yet the custodians of our sport can't wait to tell us how much they lost. Edited January 15, 2019 by moxey63 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted January 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, moxey63 said: It worries me that we have people in charge of clubs who constantly tell us they lost many thousands of pounds last season and yet carry on. Then you hear that Rye House, no better than a second-tier club but foolishly (perhaps)went into the top flight and who closed before finishing last season, offered ridiculous guarantees to riders. These are supposedly businessmen, who have made their fortunes away from speedway. I am not a businessman, but I would 't even buy a season ticket in today's speedway climate. Yet the custodians of our sport can't wait to tell us how much they lost. Promoters need saving from themselves. You can only assume that in some cases the speedway losses are actually viewed as tax losses from an individual's main source of revenue, otherwise why would they do it? Trouble is, those who treat a speedway club as a mere hobby, their 'play thing' and the chance to suddenly become a big fish in a tiny pool, invariably leave a trail of destruction and others to try and pick up the pieces. I remember Simmo telling me how he and Bill Barker made huge mistakes paying several of their King's Lynn riders way above what they could really afford - speculating to accumulate. It backfired big-time. And that was 32 years ago. Edited January 15, 2019 by tmc 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 minute ago, tmc said: Promoters need saving from themselves. You can only assume that in some cases the speedway losses are actually viewed as tax losses from an individual's main source of revenue, otherwise why would they do it? Trouble is, those who treat a speedway club as a mere hobby, their 'play thing' and the chance to suddenly become a big fish in a tiny pool invariably leave a trail of destruction and others to try and pick up the pieces. It's small wonder we're in a state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 30 minutes ago, Vince said: Easily said but if you want a career in Speedway you'll generally be starting out at 16 by the latest. Try telling any company and /or college that you want an apprenticeship but you need to be able to take random days off to travel to tracks at the other end of the country. I'll pop in this week on Tuesday until midday as have I have track A that night Wednesday in all day then I'm off all day Thursday to go to track B. Then next week I'm in except for Monday and Friday as I have track C&D. Come September you'll only be able to give a few hours notice trying to make up for rain off's and if things are going well getting some guest rides. Or you might need 3 weeks off for your broken collarbone or worse 8 weeks of with a leg. But it's Ok next year will be much the same! Speedway doesn't owe anybody a living but who is going to race league Speedway as an amateur when they can race at weekends only and might as well if they can't get near covering their costs? The only reason for tramping around the country riding for a team is the chance you'll make it to a good enough level to make some sort of living during the season then you can bust a gut doing overtime at labouring or whatever to make enough money to equip yourself for the next season. That is the reality for far more riders than make a decent year round living. Surely, if the sport was run on a purely amateur basis, all tracks could be run over the weekend, I know that might clash with greyhounds and stock cars, but there are 3 days over a weekend Friday night, Saturday and Sunday. That way, the riders can still do their day jobs or attend college or whatever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 17 minutes ago, tmc said: Promoters need saving from themselves. You can only assume that in some cases the speedway losses are actually viewed as tax losses from an individual's main source of revenue, otherwise why would they do it? Trouble is, those who treat a speedway club as a mere hobby, their 'play thing' and the chance to suddenly become a big fish in a tiny pool, invariably leave a trail of destruction and others to try and pick up the pieces. I remember Simmo telling me how he and Bill Barker made huge mistakes paying several of their King's Lynn riders way above what they could really afford - speculating to accumulate. It backfired big-time. And that was 32 years ago. Bill Barker. Wasn't he the promoter whose house was broken into the day after the Commonwealth Final and the takings were taken? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 50 minutes ago, tmc said: Promoters need saving from themselves. You can only assume that in some cases the speedway losses are actually viewed as tax losses from an individual's main source of revenue, otherwise why would they do it? Trouble is, those who treat a speedway club as a mere hobby, their 'play thing' and the chance to suddenly become a big fish in a tiny pool, invariably leave a trail of destruction and others to try and pick up the pieces. I remember Simmo telling me how he and Bill Barker made huge mistakes paying several of their King's Lynn riders way above what they could really afford - speculating to accumulate. It backfired big-time. And that was 32 years ago. It says so much how sponsorship often covers some/most of the costs that keeps the clubs going... With many of the sponsors being fans rather than business people, who see their input as giving them a close connection to 'their team' (and maybe an ego boost or a tax saving?), rather than a way of selling more product to the 500 or so in attendance... Such a system though is built on quick sand as you are dependant so much on other businesses remaining in a position to help 'bank roll' your own... It sometimes seems to appear that terms to riders are agreed first, then promoters set about frantically finding a way to afford them.... 1000 fans paying £15 after VAT would generate £12k.. Maybe set aside £9k of that to pay riders for the home and away meetings, and stick to that as a salary cap, and use the £3k left to pay the home meeting costs..? Build the overall team strengths, and how many riders per team, using the £9k as a template.... Any sponsorship then is over and above this and can be used to help pay any costs over the £3k, or maybe used as a bonus to the riders for success? A five man team sharing £9k would each average £1800 for two matches, (some would obviously earn more depending on their level, and some would earn less)... Maybe not what currently they earn, or indeed expect, however.. If the Sport keeps going on in its current downwards spiral, maybe one day (and pretty soon), riders will wish they still had a chance to earn £1800 a week.. Edited January 15, 2019 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byker Biker Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, mikebv said: It says so much how sponsorship often covers some/most of the costs that keeps the clubs going... With many of the sponsors being fans rather than business people, who see their input as giving them a close connection to 'their team' (and maybe an ego boost or a tax saving?), rather than a way of selling more product to the 500 or so in attendance... Such a system though is built on quick sand as you are dependant so much on other businesses remaining in a position to help 'bank roll' your own... It sometimes seems to appear terms to riders are agreed first then promoters set about frantically finding a way to afford them.... 1000 fans paying £15 after VAT would generate £12k.. Maybe set aside £9k of that to pay riders for the home and away meetings, and stick to that as a salary cap, and use the £3k left to pay the meeting costs..? Build the team strength, and how many riders per team, using the £9k as a template.... Any sponsorship then is over and above this and can be used to help pay any costs over the £3k, or used as a bonus to the riders for success? A five man team sharing £9k would each average £1800 for two matches, (some would obviously earn more depending on thier level, and some would earn less)... Maybe not what currently they earn, or indeed expect, however.. If the Sport keeps going on in its current downwards spiral, maybe one day (and pretty soon), riders will wish they had a chance to earn £1800 a week.. You've mentioned the one word that is the at root of most of the evil in Speedway EGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted January 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, mikebv said: It says so much how sponsorship often covers some/most of the costs that keeps the clubs going... With many of the sponsors being fans rather than business people, who see their input as giving them a close connection to 'their team' (and maybe an ego boost or a tax saving?), rather than a way of selling more product to the 500 or so in attendance... Such a system though is built on quick sand as you are dependant so much on other businesses remaining in a position to help 'bank roll' your own... It sometimes seems to appear that terms to riders are agreed first, then promoters set about frantically finding a way to afford them.... 1000 fans paying £15 after VAT would generate £12k.. Maybe set aside £9k of that to pay riders for the home and away meetings, and stick to that as a salary cap, and use the £3k left to pay the home meeting costs..? Build the overall team strengths, and how many riders per team, using the £9k as a template.... Any sponsorship then is over and above this and can be used to help pay any costs over the £3k, or maybe used as a bonus to the riders for success? A five man team sharing £9k would each average £1800 for two matches, (some would obviously earn more depending on their level, and some would earn less)... Maybe not what currently they earn, or indeed expect, however.. If the Sport keeps going on in its current downwards spiral, maybe one day (and pretty soon), riders will wish they still had a chance to earn £1800 a week.. I have it on very good authority that the highest earning Leyton Orient player (they are currently National League - tier 5 - leaders) earns around £2,000 per week. The rest of the 24-man first team squad will be on anything between that and £500 per week. Some NL clubs are full-time, others part-time. But at Orient they are all full-time professionals, with no additional job. Home crowds average between 4,500-5,000. Now if speedway riders were performing in front of crowds of 4,000-5,000 they would be entitled to earn circa £2k per meeting. But no club in British speedway is drawing that many; and most not even half that attendance figure. Edited January 15, 2019 by tmc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 3 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said: WOULD agree that it is necessary to reduce costs for riders and, as a consequence of that, to promoters. Rye House brought their own house down by providing ridiculous guarantees to three riders. When Chris Harris went to Poole he took a massive pay cut. Workington simply couldn't cope with a surfeit of home meetings and extensive payments to riders at the end of the season. There are moves afoot to help both riders and promoters to reduce their costs and ensure the viability of their business. Like all of us, income has to match expenditure. Hopefully these cost cutting measures will be passed on to the fans. It's obvious that the british public thinks the sport is poor value for money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud panther Posted January 15, 2019 Report Share Posted January 15, 2019 10 hours ago, Vince said: If you go for amateur Speedway or even paying less than it costs to ride you will say goodbye to league Speedway. NL riders may do it when they are trying to get in a higher league but it doesn't take long to run out of money. I keep seeing that riders should have full time jobs and race Speedway like in the 'good old days'. Great idea but in todays job market just how many jobs can fit in with riders travelling on various days and taking spells out injured? In the past Speedway was a big enough sport that many employers would take on riders and make allowances for their sport because it gave them some involvement, these days most employers don't know what Speedway is. I know my lad went through a variety of jobs trying to find one that fitted and I had to completely change my career to cart him around for NL Speedway. We didn't pay anybody to work on his bikes as I did the motors but the travelling and time off work hit hard, took me as long to recover financially after he gave up as he was riding for. Also don't underestimate what riders could earn in the past, only last year Les Collins was telling me how when he first raced Speedway he could earn as much or more as a second half rider as he could as an apprentice. I used to work for Jimmy Squibb and he made a very nice living out of Speedway while being the equivalent of a third heat leader today I would guess. Sorry if you have been asked this before Vince, but who is your son ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 I don't follow football at all, never have, but a mate who does informed me most players are paid each week, even during the close season. If true, nice work if you can get it.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 7 hours ago, proud panther said: Sorry if you have been asked this before Vince, but who is your son ? Sam Hurst, only rode NL for Newport and Weymouth (well a bit of PL for Newport but out of his depth). Reasonable amount of talent and a good set of balls but lacked the dedication to make it any further. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Vince said: Sam Hurst, only rode NL for Newport and Weymouth (well a bit of PL for Newport but out of his depth). Reasonable amount of talent and a good set of balls but lacked the dedication to make it any further. How do you view the NL now Vince ? do you like the direction it is going in.The few meeting's i have seen going back to the Conference i have really enjoyed it.We have some great kids coming through now do you think there is still a place for old hands in that league.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 It isn't a secret that the biggest expense to a rider is their machinery. Surely, instead of talking about following an amateur route, then for domestic speedway there should be restrictions on the amount spent on engine tuning. Surely costs which are saved by the rider could be passed on to the promotion, who then might pass it on to their patrons through the turnstiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 hour ago, moxey63 said: It isn't a secret that the biggest expense to a rider is their machinery. Surely, instead of talking about following an amateur route, then for domestic speedway there should be restrictions on the amount spent on engine tuning. Surely costs which are saved by the rider could be passed on to the promotion, who then might pass it on to their patrons through the turnstiles. Whilst we both have the same end goal my view is that riders won't pass on savings to the promotions but if riders were being paid less they would have to look at the amounts they spend/waste upon machinery. Current maintenance routines largely means replace parts rather than look after, will bikes last more than 1 season of course. No different to any other area of life if the money coming in is less then the money going out needs to be cut to reflect. Most riders aren't stupid and realise this, there will still be riders who can earn out of the sport and have fun whilst making a living. Those that cannot / will not make it pay, thanks for the memories, enjoy your retirement, time to let the next batch of riders move the sport onwards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 26 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said: Whilst we both have the same end goal my view is that riders won't pass on savings to the promotions but if riders were being paid less they would have to look at the amounts they spend/waste upon machinery. Is it not completely within the gift of clubs to pay riders less today? In turn riders will have to adjust their costs accordingly. The problem is clubs want to field a competitive team and they know that crowds are higher when a team is winning. This creates two competing objectives, cutting your cloth according to your income and fielding a winning team. Given that not all clubs are equal when it comes to income, some have higher crowds, others have more generous sponsors and so on, this creates fundamental inequality in the league. Therefore clubs are forced to decide between fielding a weaker team or pushing their budget to a level higher than their income. And then we've gone full circle. Regardless of how much you cut costs, clubs have one method and one method only to attract riders, money. This is why cost cutting doesn't work. There will always be one club prepared to pay slightly above market rate to attract the best riders and this in turn creates an arms race among all clubs. The only way to ensure a long term sustainable future for British speedway is to boost income. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinkox Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 I think speedway will become mostly amateur - not by planning or design - but by evolution - that is the extinction of fans and tracks. It will become like motor racing - where the spectators at club events are usually the drivers’ family and friends apart from a few hardcore fans sitting on a grassy bank. Grand Prix meetings will be supported massively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.