Rev Limiters

[adonis]

7 minutes ago, Vince said:

The soft limiter cutting in first would be like a fairly minor misfire so you should have plenty of warning. Every other off road bike has rev limiters including our flat track bikes, because we have less tyre grip though it's a fair bit different and we would usually gear to hit the limiter twice a lap at the ends of the straights on Speedway tracks. As pointed out though the Speedway limiter is to be set so high that it won't come into play once away from the gate.

Only time will tell . I dont really expect them to be in use much longer than april 2020 ,  first time somebody crashes because the limiter kicks in mid turn , or the misfiring leads to bore wash ,or worse still hydraulic lock that smashes the conrod , these things are history .  lets just hope when the crash happens nobody gets seriously hurt . IMO  theres no comparison between speedway and any other form of motorcycle racing .  reducing the revs at the start will lead to problems of flipping people off as well ,

[Tsunami]

5 hours ago, StevePark said:

I (kind of) remember a few years ago at Exeter, when Newcastle were there, that one of the Falcons riders was using a rev limiter and the Diamonds management complained and he was told not to use it as it was "giving him an unfair advantage."  I think the rider was Seemond Stephens, but don't hold me to that.

No, it was a retard switch Steve, which by using it it was deemed to be a programable adaption. The rider Seemond was retarding the engine at the start and, when hitting the bend in front, returning the setting to normal. His starting was so suspect it was pretty obvious. I was the one that was tipped off by Nick Thorp(Andre's Mechanic then) and registered a complaint to the ref. Interesting Seemond stopped using it for a couple of races before using it again after the ref turned the complaint down, for a scoresheet like 33003. Pretty obvious wasn't it.  

[martinmauger]

Sam Ermolenko used such a switch on his handlebars at Hull on at least one occasion; v Belle Vue June 1999 live on Sky, the one where Joe Screen & Jimmy Nielsen went handlebar to handlebar on the back straight post-race.  Think the entire meeting is on Youtube, that race certainly is, on the live broadcast after the match Kelvin asked about the switch Sam explained (words to the effect of) "it's for different ignition timing settings, something I'm trying out".  Dunno whether he used it before or afterwards....

[Tsunami]

1 hour ago, martinmauger said:

Sam Ermolenko used such a switch on his handlebars at Hull on at least one occasion; v Belle Vue June 1999 live on Sky, the one where Joe Screen & Jimmy Nielsen went handlebar to handlebar on the back straight post-race.  Think the entire meeting is on Youtube, that race certainly is, on the live broadcast after the match Kelvin asked about the switch Sam explained (words to the effect of) "it's for different ignition timing settings, something I'm trying out".  Dunno whether he used it before or afterwards....

In the late 90's there was a request for riders to be allowed programable ignition systems, which would auto do the settings for different stages in the racing. A vote was held with all league riders, and there was a majority of riders who didn't want such an extra expense. So when I knew that Seemond had a switch on his bars, I knew it was an attempt to change the ignition setting from retard at the start gate, to normal after the first bend. I pointed this out during the meeting, hence why Seemond stopped using it, but after the referee refused to do anything about it, Seemond went back to using it and won his last race. They definitely worked. Just a pity that at a later year 2002,  Davey Watt hadn't used one and he might have reached the first bend with everyone else. Instead of tootling around at the back for the 3 rides we allowed him. 

[IronScorpion]

The revs are raised at the start but too much will lead to lots of rotation or the rear wheel leading to it digging in rather than driving forward. Towards the end of meetings, as the track slickens off, I hear what sounds like a miss-firing engine  at the start line but is one or more bikes that have altered the ignition to suit.

I remember seeing in a GP this last year that after a rider won a heat he was riding back to the pits & the rider reached over with his left hand to a switch or something near his cut out and was not removing the cord. Could this have been a secondary ignition? I am not sure if the rider was Andersen or Iversen. 

[steve roberts]

18 hours ago, IronScorpion said:

The revs are raised at the start but too much will lead to lots of rotation or the rear wheel leading to it digging in rather than driving forward. Towards the end of meetings, as the track slickens off, I hear what sounds like a miss-firing engine  at the start line but is one or more bikes that have altered the ignition to suit.

I remember seeing in a GP this last year that after a rider won a heat he was riding back to the pits & the rider reached over with his left hand to a switch or something near his cut out and was not removing the cord. Could this have been a secondary ignition? I am not sure if the rider was Andersen or Iversen. 

Recall an interview with the late Neil Street (who knew a thing or two about engines) and he maintained that many riders were not taught the basics regarding throttle control and grip but adopting the fashion of just high revving engines in an attempt to get the bike to function in an economical and efficient manner.

[Sings4Speedway]

17 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Recall an interview with the late Neil Street (who knew a thing or two about engines) and he maintained that many riders were not taught the basics regarding throttle control and grip but adopting the fashion of just high revving engines in an attempt to get the bike to function in an economical and efficient manner.

Sadly how many riders are "taught" anything? Speedway is a sport with hardly any training schools and any riders that are capable of progressing don't stay in them for very long anyway. The vast majority have to teach themselves (learn the hard way) with the odd pointer picked up from people around the sport. The result means that the majority of riders progressing into / are currently in the sport are riding the bike full throttle and adapting themselves on the bike to get it round for 4 laps. 

[steve roberts]

19 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Sadly how many riders are "taught" anything? Speedway is a sport with hardly any training schools and any riders that are capable of progressing don't stay in them for very long anyway. The vast majority have to teach themselves (learn the hard way) with the odd pointer picked up from people around the sport. The result means that the majority of riders progressing into / are currently in the sport are riding the bike full throttle and adapting themselves on the bike to get it round for 4 laps. 

Yes I would agree. I once went to an Olle Nygren Training School and he would start the three day course with a basic introduction to the bike and its controls...nothing fancy but at least some initial guidelines and then you took it on from there and he would advise accordingly throughout the remainder of the course.

[*JJ]

3 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Sadly how many riders are "taught" anything? Speedway is a sport with hardly any training schools and any riders that are capable of progressing don't stay in them for very long anyway. The vast majority have to teach themselves (learn the hard way) with the odd pointer picked up from people around the sport. The result means that the majority of riders progressing into / are currently in the sport are riding the bike full throttle and adapting themselves on the bike to get it round for 4 laps. 

This is only too true. If someone wants to be a Speedway Rider, they buy a bike and take it to a 'training session', where they ride round trying to slide ... eventually they can do this but it is just by watching others, hardly anyone tries to give any advice, never mind 'training'.

[Daniel Smith]

53 minutes ago, *JJ said:

This is only too true. If someone wants to be a Speedway Rider, they buy a bike and take it to a 'training session', where they ride round trying to slide ... eventually they can do this but it is just by watching others, hardly anyone tries to give any advice, never mind 'training'.

Thankfully, now when available, Schlein and the No Limits school offer more than just riding at their training schools and Olly Allen with the Poultec education system are getting rider's back to basics of fully understanding their machines, along with riding techniques. 

Things in the last 2-3 years have improved massively from the previous couple of decades.

[Sings4Speedway]

6 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Thankfully, now when available, Schlein and the No Limits school offer more than just riding at their training schools and Olly Allen with the Poultec education system are getting rider's back to basics of fully understanding their machines, along with riding techniques. 

Things in the last 2-3 years have improved massively from the previous couple of decades.

Whilst things have started to improve any training schools that exist are very costly and the Poultec scheme whilst excellent is limited to the privileged few who often can ride at a good level already. I believe Newcastle runs some form of training schools but do not know to what level.

How many riders did the now demolished Eastbourne training track help generate? 

[piston197]

5 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Recall an interview with the late Neil Street (who knew a thing or two about engines) and he maintained that many riders were not taught the basics regarding throttle control and grip but adopting the fashion of just high revving engines in an attempt to get the bike to function in an economical and efficient manner.

I have often thought ,how difficult would it be to rig up a handlebar mounted LED revcounter strip, with say 12 LED's lighting up at 1000 RPM intervals, then as different tracks have different grip levels at the start gate, a sweet spot could be found to give maximum acceleration /traction ?

If say 9000RPM had you rocketing away from the opposition, the same rev setting could be utilised next time, and if it had you left behind try more or less revs the next time ? You don't need to be looking at the revcounter once your desired rev range has been reached then maximum attention could be on the start gate 

[Tsunami]

9 minutes ago, piston197 said:

I have often thought ,how difficult would it be to rig up a handlebar mounted LED revcounter strip, with say 12 LED's lighting up at 1000 RPM intervals, then as different tracks have different grip levels at the start gate, a sweet spot could be found to give maximum acceleration /traction ?

If say 9000RPM had you rocketing away from the opposition, the same rev setting could be utilised next time, and if it had you left behind try more or less revs the next time ? You don't need to be looking at the revcounter once your desired rev range has been reached then maximum attention could be on the start gate 

And presumably moving forward on the seat so you are just passed the maximum drive position, to stop you flipping over. 

[Vince]

25 minutes ago, piston197 said:

I have often thought ,how difficult would it be to rig up a handlebar mounted LED revcounter strip, with say 12 LED's lighting up at 1000 RPM intervals, then as different tracks have different grip levels at the start gate, a sweet spot could be found to give maximum acceleration /traction ?

If say 9000RPM had you rocketing away from the opposition, the same rev setting could be utilised next time, and if it had you left behind try more or less revs the next time ? You don't need to be looking at the revcounter once your desired rev range has been reached then maximum attention could be on the start gate 

Starting technique is interesting. I spent most of my life believing that the slicker the start the less revs you used in order to get grip. Then Neil Street spent a half hour teaching my son and I'd been doing it wrong most of my life. Basically the idea was that the less grip, the more revs and although you might lose a fraction in the first couple of yards once the wheel caught up you more than gained it back. All very counter intuitive but as ever Streety was spot on as Sam went instantly from a poor gater to a decent one.

[PHILIPRISING]

INTERESTING views by Jim McMillan, who nobody could accuse of not knowing what he is talking about, in SS this week. 

[Tsunami]

2 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Whilst things have started to improve any training schools that exist are very costly and the Poultec scheme whilst excellent is limited to the privileged few who often can ride at a good level already. I believe Newcastle runs some form of training schools but do not know to what level.

How many riders did the now demolished Eastbourne training track help generate? 

I run the Newcastle Training school usually on a Sunday afternoon, and have done since I started it 10 years ago. Riders are provided with all the gear and the bikes, and they can be of any ability or sex. I have little  starter bikes (80 and 90 cc's) and the 125/140cc's bikes as the limit for my type of training school is limited to 150cc by SCB regs. I charge £3, and that is for the medical cover I have to pay. Riders are supervised at first to determine their ability, and so beginners start with a trainer on the bike, who eventually hands over control of the bike. The new riders are then out on their own and given instruction what to work on and what to do. My Gems team has 5 riders to pick from who all had their first rides on a speedway bike at the training school, and they ride in the only home grown team in the country. Currently we have Archie Freeman(14 years old)l who last year  was British Youth Champion at 150cc level, and NJL 125 champion, and the highest average in the NJL. He is now a member of the No Limits squad mentioned above with Rory Schlein. Josh Embleton(22) is the 2018 Champion of the NJL at the 500cc level, rode for Birmingham in the NL last year and is currently looking for a place in the NL in 2019 . There are other riders who started with us who have moved on to other NJL teams and one at Championship level.

As others have hinted at, the junior scene is currently way more advanced that the sport was a few years ago, under the umbrella on Neil Vatcher and now SCB. We have probably got the best crop of young British riders for over 10 years. 

[piston197]

On 1/10/2019 at 1:49 PM, Tsunami said:

And presumably moving forward on the seat so you are just passed the maximum drive position, to stop you flipping over. 

Obviousy the rider would not be watching the LED display when ready to go ? set the revs required to the limit required for maximum traction i.e. 10,000 RPM, hold throttle in that position move forward to starting position and then look at the tape release mechanism, obviously i am not advocating sitting over the back wheel as you suggest  and watching the display as you do a back flip

[Tsunami]

On 1/17/2019 at 7:52 AM, piston197 said:

Obviousy the rider would not be watching the LED display when ready to go ? set the revs required to the limit required for maximum traction i.e. 10,000 RPM, hold throttle in that position move forward to starting position and then look at the tape release mechanism, obviously i am not advocating sitting over the back wheel as you suggest  and watching the display as you do a back flip

No, you have picked my up the wrong way. Like I said 'move forward to stop a back flip" just in case with lower revs.   

[f-s-p]

On 1/6/2019 at 10:22 AM, f-s-p said:

Dont see the point as the only time they have any use is at the startline. Current engines can rev up to 18k but is used in racing between 8-12k if I remember correct. But I guess savings are savings even if only for the 4 seconds before tapes up...

I saw a dyno test sheet yesterday that I've seen before as well. It clearly showed that all the current engines lose power at around 10500 rpm.So after that the higher revs are a bit iffy... Are they needed or not??

[OveFundinFan]

Watched on you tube yesterday England v Sweden at Sheffield 1973, a young Peter Collins against Anders Michanek on 2 valve Jawas. It was a brilliant race, and they certainly would be restricted on revs compared to today’s rocket ships, the costs would be cheaper, good market for used equipment to be sold to newcomers/learners that are rideable, and probably benefits in area of track preparation, and as bike costs fall so could entry fees for spectators.

Why cant speedway just go to modern day 2 valve bikes, times maybe slower but racing just as exciting.