SPOTY

[BWitcher]

On 12/23/2018 at 6:13 PM, uk_martin said:

Why wasn't Speedway included in SPOTY this year, people cry.

And why should it? I didn't hear any references to Womens Rugby, Rugby 7s, Basketball, Ice Hockey, World Rally Championship, or any number of other sports that fans of those sports will be crying about, the same way that speedway fans cry about the lack of speedway. So why is speedway so special, other than it's "your" sport?

I've not found the statistics for this year, but if Geraint Thomas (the winner) got as many votes this year as Andy Murray got in 2016, then that will amount to about 250,000. In 2016, Mo Farah, was in 5th place and still got over 50,000 votes.

Now lets do some sums. There are 20 speedway teams in Britain, pulling in an aggregate of probably under 15,000 paying customers every week. That's how widespread interest in British Speedway is. Even on speedways big day out in the sun, at Cardiff, there are less people in the Principality Stadium, (and that includes the Foreign Legion of fans from Poland, Sweden Germany, etc), than there were voters for Mo Farah. Until the numbers for speedway improve, can you honestly blame the BBC for not taking it seriously?

Let's get a reality check. Apart from the old faithful, nobody else cares about speedway in Britain any more. 

Another pathetic out of touch irrelevant post that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

Are people actually incapable of reading?

Nobody has said 'speedway' deserves a mention. However, British World Champions in ANY sport deserve a mention, however brief that may be.

It's interesting to see the folks who constantly 'like' this type of post. Moxey, SteveRoberts, Gustix.

Edited December 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[Hodgy]

19 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Nobody has said 'speedway' deserves a mention. However, British World Champions in ANY sport deserve a mention, however brief that may be.

Perfeito....

[orion]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 6:13 PM, uk_martin said:

Why wasn't Speedway included in SPOTY this year, people cry.

And why should it? I didn't hear any references to Womens Rugby, Rugby 7s, Basketball, Ice Hockey, World Rally Championship, 

 ..I am sure if    we had the best Best Basketball or Ice Hockey player in the world then they  would have  been  spoken about ..When Redgrave etc done well how many fans watched rowing during the year ?

[Halifaxtiger]

16 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Another pathetic out of touch irrelevant post that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

Are people actually incapable of reading?

Nobody has said 'speedway' deserves a mention. However, British World Champions in ANY sport deserve a mention, however brief that may be.

It's interesting to see the folks who constantly 'like' this type of post. Moxey, SteveRoberts, Gustix.

Its possible that there have been many British World Champions, gold medallists or other record breakers in 2018.

Woffinden isn't just a  World Champion, though. By virtue of his three titles, he can be said to be the greatest British speedway rider of all time.  Certainly his achievement is unique.

With the possible exception of the truly remarkable Lizzy Yarnold - whose inclusion shows getting within the chosen names is absolutely nothing to do with the size of the sport you represent - none of the other nominees and few other sportsmen could claim that.

To me, that means that the complaints of undeniably biased speedway fans that he did not even get a mention are entirely justified.

[Ray Stadia]

I don't think it's been mentioned anywhere else, but on the Beeb this morning, they were going through those who have passed away in 2018 and when they got to the sports section, I was waiting for Ivan Mauger, but unless I blinked at that moment, no mention of the great rider. 

[BWitcher]

4 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Its possible that there have been many British World Champions, gold medallists or other record breakers in 2018.

 

Likely not that many, even so, it would be a 2-3 minute round up at most.. even less. 

"In a great year for British Sport, here's a list of our other World Champions" would even have sufficed.

[fatface]

There's a rich irony in those who criticise the BBC for box-ticking on the one hand and on the other, they are adamant that every single British world champion should get a mention. 

[iwright71]

To not mention Tai Woffindens' achievement is out of order in my book. But BBC has its own agenda and sports  they want to push. Usually the few sports they actually cover and if it involves women's sport or diversity then all the better. To ignore and not interview Georgia Hall the first British women to win the women's Open for 14 years was disgraceful mainly because it wasn't on BBC ,it sums up what SPOTY has become. I used to love the program but now choose not to watch.

[Sidney the robin]

On 12/26/2018 at 4:18 PM, Halifaxtiger said:

Its possible that there have been many British World Champions, gold medallists or other record breakers in 2018.

Woffinden isn't just a  World Champion, though. By virtue of his three titles, he can be said to be the greatest British speedway rider of all time.  Certainly his achievement is unique.

With the possible exception of the truly remarkable Lizzy Yarnold - whose inclusion shows getting within the chosen names is absolutely nothing to do with the size of the sport you represent - none of the other nominees and few other sportsmen could claim that.

To me, that means that the complaints of undeniably biased speedway fans that he did not even get a mention are entirely justified.

 

On 12/26/2018 at 4:18 PM, Halifaxtiger said:

Its possible that there have been many British World Champions, gold medallists or other record breakers in 2018.

Woffinden isn't just a  World Champion, though. By virtue of his three titles, he can be said to be the greatest British speedway rider of all time.  Certainly his achievement is unique.

With the possible exception of the truly remarkable Lizzy Yarnold - whose inclusion shows getting within the chosen names is absolutely nothing to do with the size of the sport you represent - none of the other nominees and few other sportsmen could claim that.

To me, that means that the complaints of undeniably biased speedway fans that he did not even get a mention are entirely justified.

Halifax i  do agree with you  99 per cent of the time Woffinden is NOT  a certainty  to be the greatest   British rider of all time???! .Theyre would be a case for Craven, Lee,Collins,( ie. ) because of the format Tai rode in those riders never had the Series likeTai  to ride in Tai is a GREAT rider but those other  Brits were to.!!!!!

[chunky]

44 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

 

Halifax i  do agree with you  99 per cent of the time Woffinden is NOT  a certainty  to be the greatest   British rider of all time???! .Theyre would be a case for Craven, Lee,Collins,( ie. ) because of the format Tai rode in those riders never had the Series likeTai  to ride in Tai is a GREAT rider but those other  Brits were to.!!!!!

Why???

Please don't think I'm picking on you, Sidney, because you are not the only one, but nowhere - NOWHERE - has anybody said that Craven, Collins, and Lee WEREN'T greats!  They WERE greats. Of course they were. However, Tai's record in World Championships sets him apart from every other British rider.  Neither is Tai a certainty TO BE the greatest British of all time, as it is possible for someone to come along in the future (if there is a future) and improve on his record.  As it stands, though, Tai's record is comfortably better than those others mentioned, and it is likely to get better still.

We have repeatedly said it is difficult to compare different riders from different eras, and it is difficult to compare formats. What is pretty much certain that the top riders would have been top riders in whatever era that they had competed.

Steve

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

Why???

Please don't think I'm picking on you, Sidney, because you are not the only one, but nowhere - NOWHERE - has anybody said that Craven, Collins, and Lee WEREN'T greats!  They WERE greats. Of course they were. However, Tai's record in World Championships sets him apart from every other British rider.  Neither is Tai a certainty TO BE the greatest British of all time, as it is possible for someone to come along in the future (if there is a future) and improve on his record.  As it stands, though, Tai's record is comfortably better than those others mentioned, and it is likely to get better still.

We have repeatedly said it is difficult to compare different riders from different eras, and it is difficult to compare formats. What is pretty much certain that the top riders would have been top riders in whatever era that they had competed.

Steve

I am the same Steve ( Happy Christmas) i am not picking on you or Tai i was there in  October Torun to see him win his title BRILLIANT.He has won the WC in a  GP format a tough series a war of attrition but this is a different discipline. Also today is the level that great i am  not sure???.also the series has grown on me but it is still a CLOSED shop something that has never really changed something i would like to see change in the future.Would Mauger, Fundin, Olsen,Nielsen,Briggs, as examples of liked to ride in today's climate i think  so.I know the old one off Final was a different discipline but i still believe it was a more difficult,harder, Brutal, discipline to win under.Yes Tai is up there with the greats maybe surpassed a lot of them but he is not at a different level to the Brit's i mentioned also don't forget Farndon(no title,) Williams.

[fatface]

41 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I am the same Steve ( Happy Christmas) i am not picking on you or Tai i was there in  October Torun to see him win his title BRILLIANT.He has won the WC in a  GP format a tough series a war of attrition but this is a different discipline. Also today is the level that great i am  not sure???.also the series has grown on me but it is still a CLOSED shop something that has never really changed something i would like to see change in the future.Would Mauger, Fundin, Olsen,Nielsen,Briggs, as examples of liked to ride in today's climate i think  so.I know the old one off Final was a different discipline but i still believe it was a more difficult,harder, Brutal, discipline to win under.Yes Tai is up there with the greats maybe surpassed a lot of them but he is not at a different level to the Brit's i mentioned also don't forget Farndon(no title,) Williams.

I know it’s Christmas, but do we really have to play the same records over and over again guys?

Here’s to some new tunes for 2019! :-)

[BWitcher]

11 hours ago, falcace said:

There's a rich irony in those who criticise the BBC for box-ticking on the one hand and on the other, they are adamant that every single British world champion should get a mention. 

No there isn't, there is zero comparison.

[Mr Snackette]

In my opinion the key word in Sports Personality of the Year....is personality!!

One key component of being a personality is the ability to be recognised by the public at large.

Now living in Southern Spain, I help organise a weekly "pub quiz" for fellow expats. We start the quiz with a themed photo round, last week entitled Sports Stars of 2018.

There were pictures of the following: Geraint Thomas, Andrés Iniesta, Tom Brady, Luka Modrić, Lizzy Yarnold, Marc Márquez, Lewis Hamilton, Tommy Fleetwood, Luka Dončić, Dina Asher-Smith, James Anderson, Sergio García, Harry Kane, Alberto Contador AND Tai Woffinden.

Over 60 people took part in the quiz. The bottom in the recognition stakes were Dina Asher-Smith (5 right answers), Luka Dončić (3 right answers), Lizzy Arnold (2 right answers). Only one sports star received no correct answers at all.....yes Tai Woffinden! In fairness someone did recognise it was a speedway rider, but thought it was Jason Crump, as that was the only name of a speedway rider he could remember!

Ok I'm not suggesting that the contestants in my quiz were a representative cross-section. However they are keen quizzers with a good general knowledge... yet not one of the could recognise nor name the current world speedway champion!!

 

That says volumes!!!

[BWitcher]

2 hours ago, Mr Snackette said:

In my opinion the key word in Sports Personality of the Year....is personality!!

One key component of being a personality is the ability to be recognised by the public at large.

Now living in Southern Spain, I help organise a weekly "pub quiz" for fellow expats. We start the quiz with a themed photo round, last week entitled Sports Stars of 2018.

There were pictures of the following: Geraint Thomas, Andrés Iniesta, Tom Brady, Luka Modrić, Lizzy Yarnold, Marc Márquez, Lewis Hamilton, Tommy Fleetwood, Luka Dončić, Dina Asher-Smith, James Anderson, Sergio García, Harry Kane, Alberto Contador AND Tai Woffinden.

Over 60 people took part in the quiz. The bottom in the recognition stakes were Dina Asher-Smith (5 right answers), Luka Dončić (3 right answers), Lizzy Arnold (2 right answers). Only one sports star received no correct answers at all.....yes Tai Woffinden! In fairness someone did recognise it was a speedway rider, but thought it was Jason Crump, as that was the only name of a speedway rider he could remember!

Ok I'm not suggesting that the contestants in my quiz were a representative cross-section. However they are keen quizzers with a good general knowledge... yet not one of the could recognise nor name the current world speedway champion!!

 

That says volumes!!!

No it doesn't, it's completely irrelevant again, it's simply a representation of which sports get given press attention and which don't. If you were to follow that line of thinking people like Lizzy Yarnold would never get a mention in events such as this.

There is also no component in 'personality' of being recognised by the public at large.. you've concocted that from somewhere!

Not that the 'personality' part is in any way a 'key' word even when it is applied correctly as their 'personality' has zero influence.. indeed with many sports stars we have little idea of their actual personality. 

I am assuming that you have made this post as a reason why it is justified not mentioning Woffinden.. yet it actually is the argument why he should be mentioned.

Quite simply, British World Champions, in whatever sport it is should be mentioned and given credit for their achievements.

Edited December 28, 2018 by BWitcher

[chunky]

18 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Quite simply, British World Champions, in whatever sport it is should be mentioned and given credit for their achievements.

It's not like it would take THAT, long, is it? We are not exactly blessed with dozens of 'em...

I didn't see it, but were Lisa Ashton, Glen Durrant, Steve Holcombe, and Rob Cross mentioned? Like Tai, they SHOULD have been.

Steve

[Mr Snackette]

9 hours ago, BWitcher said:

No it doesn't, it's completely irrelevant again, it's simply a representation of which sports get given press attention and which don't. If you were to follow that line of thinking people like Lizzy Yarnold would never get a mention in events such as this.

There is also no component in 'personality' of being recognised by the public at large.. you've concocted that from somewhere!

Not that the 'personality' part is in any way a 'key' word even when it is applied correctly as their 'personality' has zero influence.. indeed with many sports stars we have little idea of their actual personality. 

I am assuming that you have made this post as a reason why it is justified not mentioning Woffinden.. yet it actually is the argument why he should be mentioned.

Quite simply, British World Champions, in whatever sport it is should be mentioned and given credit for their achievements.

Oh dear we have touched a nerve!!

Lizzie Arnold clearly has more recognition and a higher public profile than Woffenden.....I'm not saying that's right or wrong. It's just the way it is. 

The fact that over 60 quizzers in Spain had never heard of, or recognise the world speedway champion, is slamming indictment of the sport.

Add to the list Steve mentioned we have Stuart Smith Junior, Billy Wood, Callum Smith, Charlie Edwards, Josh Warrington etc etc....and I'm sure there are plenty of others who deserve a mention. However the BBC has to produce 2 hours of entertainment, and providing a list of names, no matter how worthy, of people that few have heard of isn't going to cut it!

 

Edited December 29, 2018 by Mr Snackette

[Halifaxtiger]

22 minutes ago, Mr Snackette said:

Oh dear we have touched a nerve!!

Lizzie Arnold clearly has more recognition and a higher public profile than Woffenden.....I'm not saying that's right or wrong. It's just the way it is. 

The fact that over 60 quizzers in Spain had never heard of, or recognise the world speedway champion, is slamming indictment of the sport.

Add to the list Steve mentioned we have Stuart Smith Junior, Billy Wood, Callum Smith, Charlie Edwards, Josh Warrington etc etc....and I'm sure there are plenty of others who deserve a mention. However the BBC has to produce 2 hours of entertainment, and providing a list of names, no matter how worthy, of people that few have heard of isn't going to cut it!

 

If Lizzy Yarnold does have more recognition it's not much more given that only 2 out of more than 60 knew of her, and that's with the benefit of mainstream media coverage that would dwarf Woffinden's. 

Is it an indictment of speedway or of the media coverage of it ?

As I have pointed out, Woffinden isn't just a World Champion he's the only British rider ever to achieve 3 titles and it's therefore a matter of unprecedented success. While I take Sydney's point, it is fair argument that he is the greatest exponent of a sport that Britain has ever produced  (ironically, Lizzy Yarnold is the same). 

I actually think that is worth more than a mere mention.

[fatface]

39 minutes ago, Mr Snackette said:

Oh dear we have touched a nerve!!

Lizzie Arnold clearly has more recognition and a higher public profile than Woffenden.....I'm not saying that's right or wrong. It's just the way it is. 

The fact that over 60 quizzers in Spain had never heard of, or recognise the world speedway champion, is slamming indictment of the sport.

Add to the list Steve mentioned we have Stuart Smith Junior, Billy Wood, Callum Smith, Charlie Edwards, Josh Warrington etc etc....and I'm sure there are plenty of others who deserve a mention. However the BBC has to produce 2 hours of entertainment, and providing a list of names, no matter how worthy, of people that few have heard of isn't going to cut it!

 

Careful with your facts and reasoned argument there. You are leaving yourself wide open to being told that you are wrong and erm, you just are, so there!

Let's not forget those British world champions from this year's World Equestrian Games, World Paralympic Table Tennis Championships, World Duathlon Championships, World Para Triathlon Championships, World Paralympic Rowing Championships and so on. If it were a year of Paralympic Swimming and Athletics World Championships, SPOTY could make for a five hour bonanza!

There are none so blind that those that won't see. The truth is that outside of it's own bubble, speedway is irrelevant to the wider world. 

Edited December 29, 2018 by falcace

[Spl77]

Oh dear still debating this are we.

Can we just except that speedway is a minority sport that struggles to attract a combinded audience of 20k a week from all its venues and that the mainstream press and 99% of the general public have no Idea what speedway is or who Tai Woffinden is. 

Just to show how important it is almost a month on and I have no Idea who one and to honest don't really care. 

I'd better not even get you lot started on the new years honours list!