SPEEDY69 Posted December 11, 2018 Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 Sadly Buxton have withdrawn from the NL and on reading the great article in the S Star last week (bought in WH Smith) it seems costs are the issue yet again. It really was a sad development when the third league went 'professional'. With ever increasing medical, insurance and licence costs it seems NL riders have been looking for higher pay rates, vans and even paid mechanics! If the third div collectively refused, there would be more riders seeking CL places and lead to less need for doubling down from the PL. How many more tracks will have to close before the BSPA and more importantly the riders realise that the money is not there. When I rode in the third div in 1997 the top scorer got 50 quid and a gallon of fuel plus 5p mile travelling. The bottom two got 15 pounds in total. It was a hobby so I didn't object to paying to ride. Those who wanted a career also had to shell out in order to progress. That's how it is in many careers - how much debt do students leave Uni with on the prospect of future earnings? I really hope the track there is not lost and that the third tier soon returns to amateur status and I feel really sorry for the Moss family. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East End Fan Posted December 11, 2018 Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 Speedy69 got £50 in 1997 ...Today in that same league the top rider might get £250/£300...allow for inflation and it is not that much different is it ?. In the 20 years in between equipment has changed out of all recognition and the costs have spiralled. If Speedy69 had his wish for the 3rd tier to return to amateur status, every track would go the same sad way of Buxton . Does he really want that ? I certainly do not and get huge pleasure from the quality that presently exists in the National League, a mixture of abilities with riders striving to improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted December 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2018 I don't know in what country that might be but I reckon, allowing for UK inflation, 50 quid then would be worth about 90 pounds now. We'll agree to differ on clubs folding, i think the bigger drain is cost rises, not income falls. Speedway in the UK can barely support two professional leagues, let alone three. Would you mind paying more to watch NL speedway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) For me the '3rd Division' should be the 'development league'... I seem to remember that this was it's initial vision... Each team seemed to have one rider with experience (a rider coach wasn't it referred to as?) and the other six were aspiring riders, keen to learn from the more experienced pros, and benchmark themselves against them when racing... Paid track time was the outlook for many... Instead it transpired into a pseudo pro league, mainly driven that way by '2nd tier' teams who couldn't make that league pay so dropped down, bringing with them several of their riders from the previous higher level who then doubled down and brought with them higher expectations of payment... Thus creating the plethora of 'professional juniors' who now exist, who invariably make almost zero improvement year on year as they have found their level, but continue riding... In effect clogging up the system of development as the places they take should be being used to bring on younger riders... I thought this year the BSPA was eager to have clear demarcation between the leagues with the averages it set, however by simply not converting Premiership averages to Championship equivalents using the x1.5 conversation it set, it has undermined it's own idea... Division One should be the 'pro league'... Division Two should be the 'semi pro league'.. Division Three should be the development league, where getting some expenses to help cover costs should be seen as an added bonus to the track time being provided.. Three clear differential standards, with three clear aspirational levels for riders to move into... Edited December 12, 2018 by mikebv 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurnTwo Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 9 hours ago, East End Fan said: Speedy69 got £50 in 1997 ...Today in that same league the top rider might get £250/£300...allow for inflation and it is not that much different is it ?. In the 20 years in between equipment has changed out of all recognition and the costs have spiralled. If Speedy69 had his wish for the 3rd tier to return to amateur status, every track would go the same sad way of Buxton . Does he really want that ? I certainly do not and get huge pleasure from the quality that presently exists in the National League, a mixture of abilities with riders striving to improve. I’m not so sure on £250 for example the top rider is this league is on a 10 point average he is probably on £30 pp 20ppm tyre fuel and oil so he’s likely taking home in excess of £400 a meeting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 7 hours ago, mikebv said: For me the '3rd Division' should be the 'development league'... I seem to remember that this was it's initial vision... Each team seemed to have one rider with experience (a rider coach wasn't it referred to as?) and the other six were aspiring riders, keen to learn from the more experienced pros, and benchmark themselves against them when racing... Paid track time was the outlook for many... Instead it transpired into a pseudo pro league, mainly driven that way by '2nd tier' teams who couldn't make that league pay so dropped down, bringing with them several of their riders from the previous higher level who then doubled down and brought with them higher expectations of payment... Thus creating the plethora of 'professional juniors' who now exist, who invariably make almost zero improvement year on year as they have found their level, but continue riding... In effect clogging up the system of development as the places they take should be being used to bring on younger riders... I thought this year the BSPA was eager to have clear demarcation between the leagues with the averages it set, however by simply not converting Premiership averages to Championship equivalents using the x1.5 conversation it set, it has undermined it's own idea... Division One should be the 'pro league'... Division Two should be the 'semi pro league'.. Division Three should be the development league, where getting some expenses to help cover costs should be seen as an added bonus to the track time being provided.. Three clear differential standards, with three clear aspirational levels for riders to move into... I literally couldn't agree more. What really grinds my gears is the number of riders who hang around for years, making little improvement and moaning how speedway treats them whilst the actual development league riders & organisers are treated like dirt. 26 minutes ago, TurnTwo said: I’m not so sure on £250 for example the top rider is this league is on a 10 point average he is probably on £30 pp 20ppm tyre fuel and oil so he’s likely taking home in excess of £400 a meeting Even that wouldn't be so bad but i know better heat leaders at not the most renowned high paying club was giving £35 a point, tyre and fuel for home meetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Teaboy said in a post recently that Buxton had failed to move on. I think he has a point. It seems to me that many seem to forget that an NL speedway club is a business. As such, they need to pull in enough revenue to meet their expenses which, aside from rider costs (a big chunk, admittedly) are no different from any other track. Rent, ambulance cover, insurance, BSPA fees, track preparation costs - they are the same (or so) regardless. In order to get that revenue, they have to a product that is attractive enough to entice paying customers and, through that, sponsorship, Otherwise they are history. When Rob Godfrey ran a very weak NL side a couple of seasons ago, every single home meeting was a double header with the PL team with a couple of quid banged on the entry price. Its not difficult to work out why he did that : run them as stand alones, and they would attract a handful of fans only. It would be slightly different for the likes of Kent, Mildenhall, Plymouth etc, but there's no doubt a weakened product would affect attendances and, through that sponsorship and, from that, the very existence of the team. Its why I have no problem with the so called NL professionals. Looking through last years starting line ups, most teams had just 1 or at the most 2, and they were nearly all 7.00 or above riders. None of those would take a 2point youngsters place. The way I see it, the NL has done an excellent job of compromising between development and viability. Make no mistake, a low point limit is more likely to put clubs out of business than a high one, which is probably why Mark Phillips has stated that they were all against the reduction in points this season. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTB Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) Firstly it would be one man and his dog at development meetings ... and most of them would be parents and family who hadn’t paid to get in. Blow an engine and where does the money come from to replace it if they were on nominal fees , a crash helmet costs £500 , boots £300/400 that’s before replacing worn parts and bent frames and handle bars , the costs to the rider are quite high to put a bike out on the track. Also would you do such a dangerous sport for little money ? Edited December 12, 2018 by UTB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonis Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 hours ago, UTB said: Firstly it would be one man and his dog at development meetings ... and most of them would be parents and family who hadn’t paid to get in. Blow an engine and where does the money come from to replace it if they were on nominal fees , a crash helmet costs £500 , boots £300/400 that’s before replacing worn parts and bent frames and handle bars , the costs to the rider are quite high to put a bike out on the track. Also would you do such a dangerous sport for little money ? The same reason Thousands yes that's right thousands go out MX racing each and every weekend , because despite the costs which are equal to speedway , it's what they choose to do , 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 8 hours ago, adonis said: The same reason Thousands yes that's right thousands go out MX racing each and every weekend , because despite the costs which are equal to speedway , it's what they choose to do , I think you are absolutely right. Riders at NL level in particular (and especially the NL professionals) do it because they love competing in speedway. Having said that, there's also the matter of ambition. Many of the youngsters believe they have the talent to go further, so while they might love it they also race because of the possibility of fame and fortune. I'd also say that if there was no payment at NL level some (again, the NL professionals) would quit. Moreover the standard would drop, as funds were not available to meet the high costs of equipment in the way that UTB has said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 its tricky because up and down the country there are the loads of amateurs and development riders who do it for absolutely zero financial reward. Riding NL should be seen and treated as a subsidised hobby, the chance to do something you really enjoy with some funds coming back in. All the non league riders have to pay for everything themselves, still take time off work to travel up and down the country on terrible days and are not ever guaranteed a ride. If NL went purely amateur or £10 a point max the standard would drop a bit briefly as the current crop stepped aside but it would soon pick up again and become far more about actual rider ability rather than who has the deepest pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 22 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said: Teaboy said in a post recently that Buxton had failed to move on. I think he has a point. It seems to me that many seem to forget that an NL speedway club is a business. As such, they need to pull in enough revenue to meet their expenses which, aside from rider costs (a big chunk, admittedly) are no different from any other track. Rent, ambulance cover, insurance, BSPA fees, track preparation costs - they are the same (or so) regardless. In order to get that revenue, they have to a product that is attractive enough to entice paying customers and, through that, sponsorship, Otherwise they are history. When Rob Godfrey ran a very weak NL side a couple of seasons ago, every single home meeting was a double header with the PL team with a couple of quid banged on the entry price. Its not difficult to work out why he did that : run them as stand alones, and they would attract a handful of fans only. It would be slightly different for the likes of Kent, Mildenhall, Plymouth etc, but there's no doubt a weakened product would affect attendances and, through that sponsorship and, from that, the very existence of the team. Its why I have no problem with the so called NL professionals. Looking through last years starting line ups, most teams had just 1 or at the most 2, and they were nearly all 7.00 or above riders. None of those would take a 2point youngsters place. The way I see it, the NL has done an excellent job of compromising between development and viability. Make no mistake, a low point limit is more likely to put clubs out of business than a high one, which is probably why Mark Phillips has stated that they were all against the reduction in points this season. Would have though a different approach is more suitable for the NL. Riders making the step into the PL need 1 or 2 seasons when they can continue taking part in the PL if they wish to, without becoming effectively barred from doing so because of stringent team points limits. Some thing along the lines of having a tight points limit for 5 NL team members, alongside a squad type of arrangement for the top two riders - say for example up to three riders with a generous combined points limit - and rules which set out minimum and maximum number of matches these 3 riders can take part in, with facility to draft in and out a replacement in the event of injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East End Fan Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 On 12/12/2018 at 6:17 PM, Halifaxtiger said: Teaboy said in a post recently that Buxton had failed to move on. I think he has a point. It seems to me that many seem to forget that an NL speedway club is a business. As such, they need to pull in enough revenue to meet their expenses which, aside from rider costs (a big chunk, admittedly) are no different from any other track. Rent, ambulance cover, insurance, BSPA fees, track preparation costs - they are the same (or so) regardless. In order to get that revenue, they have to a product that is attractive enough to entice paying customers and, through that, sponsorship, Otherwise they are history. When Rob Godfrey ran a very weak NL side a couple of seasons ago, every single home meeting was a double header with the PL team with a couple of quid banged on the entry price. Its not difficult to work out why he did that : run them as stand alones, and they would attract a handful of fans only. It would be slightly different for the likes of Kent, Mildenhall, Plymouth etc, but there's no doubt a weakened product would affect attendances and, through that sponsorship and, from that, the very existence of the team. Its why I have no problem with the so called NL professionals. Looking through last years starting line ups, most teams had just 1 or at the most 2, and they were nearly all 7.00 or above riders. None of those would take a 2point youngsters place. The way I see it, the NL has done an excellent job of compromising between development and viability. Make no mistake, a low point limit is more likely to put clubs out of business than a high one, which is probably why Mark Phillips has stated that they were all against the reduction in points this season. Halifaxtiger has hit the nail on the head. All those dreamers who suggest that tracks can stage meetings full of Wobblies and expect people to pay to watch it need their heads looking at. ANY stadium costs money to run at ANY level. Only turnstile takings can maintain a stadium. So ALL Speedway promoters need to put on a show that the public will pay to watch. Since the present National League became semi-professional, there have been any number of young Brits who have been able to move up into the senior leagues....Best example, our very best current Brit outside of the World Champ ( who came from the 3rd tier), Robert Lambert. So...IF the league is doing the training job it was originally set up to do, then why do we need to kill it by reducing the ability level to the point of extinction ? Whoever it is that has the power to keep the standards down in the NL, needs to learn something about the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonis Posted December 13, 2018 Report Share Posted December 13, 2018 2 hours ago, East End Fan said: Halifaxtiger has hit the nail on the head. All those dreamers who suggest that tracks can stage meetings full of Wobblies and expect people to pay to watch it need their heads looking at. ANY stadium costs money to run at ANY level. Only turnstile takings can maintain a stadium. So ALL Speedway promoters need to put on a show that the public will pay to watch. Since the present National League became semi-professional, there have been any number of young Brits who have been able to move up into the senior leagues....Best example, our very best current Brit outside of the World Champ ( who came from the 3rd tier), Robert Lambert. So...IF the league is doing the training job it was originally set up to do, then why do we need to kill it by reducing the ability level to the point of extinction ? Whoever it is that has the power to keep the standards down in the NL, needs to learn something about the sport. Lambert is not a very good example of the virtues of nl speedway . it's no secret that he and his family credit germany with his rapid rise to the top , and he did very few NL meetings anyway before jumping straight into the premiership , a better example would have been Craig Cook , or Chris Harris both spent a couple of full seasons in the third tier while making their way up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East End Fan Posted December 14, 2018 Report Share Posted December 14, 2018 I bow to your better judgement, Adonis...but there are so many examples that PROVE the benefits of the National League as it has been and I simply do not understand the reasoning behind the lowering of standards. And it seems, if the various views that are expounded on this forum are true, it is NOT the wishes of the N.L. promoters that is being implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted December 14, 2018 Report Share Posted December 14, 2018 The SDL is the place for wobblers, not the NL. If the standard continues to fall, more tracks will go out of business. I can't see the logic in lowering the points limit, it's like the sport has a death wish. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted December 14, 2018 Report Share Posted December 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, cityrebel said: The SDL is the place for wobblers, not the NL. If the standard continues to fall, more tracks will go out of business. I can't see the logic in lowering the points limit, it's like the sport has a death wish. S/MDL is not a place for wobblers, its a place for riders who are honing their skills to get themselves to NL standard. Wobblers should be running in amateur meetings until they are development league standard (i agree there are a few that shouldn't be in there) but there are also plenty of talented and dedicated lads in those leagues and who would appreciate a little more support as they may become one of the many to graduate from them and prosper in league speedway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonis Posted December 14, 2018 Report Share Posted December 14, 2018 8 hours ago, East End Fan said: I bow to your better judgement, Adonis...but there are so many examples that PROVE the benefits of the National League as it has been and I simply do not understand the reasoning behind the lowering of standards. And it seems, if the various views that are expounded on this forum are true, it is NOT the wishes of the N.L. promoters that is being implemented. I dont think anybody other than the BSPA wants it . not the fans not the the riders not the Nl promoters ,and if you are to create a league which is purely for the purpose of development , then you have to have a system where the developed riders can go afterwards and get a decent run at it . as it is the gap between NL and championship is too big ,and if you make the step up you will most likely be replaced within weeks by an untried foreigner 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted December 14, 2018 Report Share Posted December 14, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, adonis said: I dont think anybody other than the BSPA wants it . not the fans not the the riders not the Nl promoters ,and if you are to create a league which is purely for the purpose of development , then you have to have a system where the developed riders can go afterwards and get a decent run at it . as it is the gap between NL and championship is too big ,and if you make the step up you will most likely be replaced within weeks by an untried foreigner That's my understanding of it. It is an indictment of the BSPA that they have forced a decision on the NL against the wishes of everyone in that league, a league in which they have no financial stake. What's worse, its entirely possible that that decision was made for their own selfish interests. I was very impressed with the Colts team last night but, as I have pointed out on that thread, had the points limit remained the same they could have had Smith rather than Phillips. A younger, less experienced, seriously Belle Vue connected rider has been dumped in favour of someone older, more experienced and with little - if any - connection to the club. Edited December 14, 2018 by Halifaxtiger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonis Posted December 14, 2018 Report Share Posted December 14, 2018 54 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said: That's my understanding of it. It is an indictment of the BSPA that they have forced a decision on the NL against the wishes of everyone in that league, a league in which they have no financial stake. What's worse, its entirely possible that that decision was made for their own selfish interests. I was very impressed with the Colts team last night but, as I have pointed out on that thread, had the points limit remained the same they could have had Smith rather than Phillips. A younger, less experienced, seriously Belle Vue connected rider has been dumped in favour of someone older, more experienced and with little - if any - connection to the club. Dissapointing to see young Jack left out , similar with Andy Mellish . with a team like like Colts being a second team . riders who are A , popular with the fans ,B, have some sort of local draw to put as many bums onseats as possible are needed to help bring people in , throughout the league there are riders left out who ,were I an NL promoter would be first on my shopping list , and others who have team places that I wouldn't give the time of day to . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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