Birmingham Brummies 2019

[hopey]

23 hours ago, kitten2502 said:

The proposed apartment blocks are no nearer than the university halls of residence or lecture rooms were and they failed with their noise complaints. Surely any prospective residents HAVE to be made aware of the sporting activities and noise consequences - if they are not already aware - and signing up for one of those properties constitutes a disclaimer for complaint.

They will then be rented as homes after the games.  Low cost homes !!

[uk_martin]

Has everyone already forgotten the legal case that Mildenhall got embroiled with, and eventually lost?

[brianbuck]

I don't imagine that the developers are unaware of the presence of the speedway and will be prepared to undertake noise testing if the City Council believe that it is necessary. However, the speedway club have full planning permission subject to conditions which have all been complied with, has established a very good rapport with the Perry Barr Councillors, and there have been no complaints about noise made to either the Council, the local councillors or to the speedway promotion for the last five or six years.

The stadium is sited on two of Birmingham's busiest roads, the A34 Walsall Road, and Aldridge Road which both have very high levels of traffic throughout the day. During the planning application process, extensive noise testing was conducted by the council (at the speedway promotion's expense!) and which they (the Council) were satisfied with (albeit after the introduction of the new silencers) the Environmental Services officer stating that it "met all three of their criteria." (We were never told what these criteria were).

The University declined to send an observer to these tests preferring to conduct their own testing, and were caught red-handed doing this with their microphone sited on the pavement outside the stadium! As an experiment, we then conducted another test whilst a speedway match was in progress, with our microphones placed outside the closest entrance door of the University (as they wouldn't allow us inside!). We then repeated the test from the same spot at 2pm on the following afternoon and found that the latter test produced a noise level almost 10db higher than that of the previous evening. We made known this result to the Council and although it was never acknowledged by them, we think it was probably a major factor in us eventually getting a full planning consent.

I agree though, that it is quite likely that sooner or later, the issue of noise will be raised but I am personally reasonably confident that this will not become a major problem especially since the City Council have gone on record as expressing a preference that Perry Barr should be retained as a Greyhound Racing venue at the expense of Hall Green "because it also stages speedway and other sporting events." This comment was made during the debate on whether or not a planning consent should be granted for demolishing Hall Green Stadium two years ago, and is shown in writing on the planning committee records. 

[uk_martin]

The Commonwealth Games Athletes Village, which will be converted post-games to a mix of social and owner-occupied homes, has a couple of game changing aspects to it. As Brian Buck mentioned, the stadium has two main roads around it at the moment, but with the plan to divert the Aldridge Road, and with the use of the current 2nd hand truck dealership as new housing land will come the prospect of "full time" housing being literally "over the road" on two sides of the stadium. This is a step change to the current housing situation, where Wellhead Lane, Nash Square and the Perry Hall estate are all further away and have obstructions between them and the stadium, which shields the noise to some degree.

We have to be realistic, and with the prospect of 1500-odd new householders coming into the area, you can't hide from the prospect that one of them may be an elderly person in need of peace and quiet, or that others don't find speedway to be "in their culture" and would rather have a super-mosque built there. Sadly the legal precident set in the Mildenhall case a couple of years ago makes it clear that coming into a neighbourhood with an existing noise issue, doesn't prevent you from complaining about it and getting it dealt with. Unlike Mildenhall, where the problem went away when the complainants house mysteriously burnt down, there will be more than one house to contend when the new Perry Barr redevelopment is finished.

[Brummie Boy]

11 minutes ago, uk_martin said:

or that others don't find speedway to be "in their culture" and would rather have a super-mosque built there.

I always understood there was some sort of preservation order on the grandstand at the greyhound track, which has been an obstruction to previous plans to redevelop the site for things like housing or industrial use. I presume this is likely to remain in place, whether speedway takes place on the site or not. Also, given the massive amount of redevelopment taking place in Perry Barr for the games, I would imagine the stadium site would have been acquired (under compulsory purchase) for inclusion in the redevelopment if there had not been a preservation order in place.

I am not 100% certain of this, so I stand to be corrected on this if someone knows the current position with the stadium grandstand.

[brianbuck]

Yes, the grandstand (or part of it), is a grade 2 listed building, and there is also a covenant stating that the land must be used for sport. There are of course though, ways and means of getting round these "obstacles" where there is a will to do so, so we can't totally rely on this for our future salvation. As things stand though, there is little or nothing that we can do but wait and see.

As UK Martin lives pretty close to the stadium, perhaps he can give an indication of how the very close "locals" feel about the development?

[uk_martin]

3 hours ago, brianbuck said:

As UK Martin lives pretty close to the stadium, perhaps he can give an indication of how the very close "locals" feel about the development?

To be honest, I don't think that it's an issue that's really hit the public imagination. My own guess is that most people will welcome the demolition and redevelopment of what is in all honesty an eyesore, and although the athletes village / housing scheme has received planning approval, other connected matters are still in the process of getting approved.

There are small groups of residents who have objections to this thing or that...e.g. the domolition of the fly-over that separates the stadium from the One Stop Shopping Centre, and the introduction of extra bus lanes, but there's a general feeling that no matter how much people jump up and down about their little gripes, this thing is going ahead, so let's make the best of it.

There is a pubished Compulsary Purchase Order Zone, and the Stadium is not part of it. Full details can be seen here - https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/20054/planning_strategies_and_policies/1838/perry_barr_commonwealth_games_athletes_village_and_wider_regeneration_compulsory_purchase_order

I'm aware of the Deed of Covenant that "protects" the sporting purposes of the land that the stadium sits on, but just recently, a doctors surgery has been converted to an Islamic Academy, another independent "faith school" has been built on the old IMI factory site, and there is a planning application in the system for Perry Barr Police Station to be demolished and a mosque built in its place. There are even rumours of the Seventh Trap pub being demolished and a mosque being there too.  Join the dots to see which way this is panning out into the future. 

[uk_martin]

One of the Artists impressions from the Council documentation. You can see the stadium in it, and you can see how close a lot of living accommodation will be. Imagine this projection to be taken from above and behind the existing bus garage, looking westwards towards the One Stop Shopping Centre.

Out of interest, the plan is that Aldridge Road that currently goes straight from the stadium to the "Crown & Cushion Roundabout" will be diverted around the stadium. Basically the road that's there now, will be widened and made dual-directional, meeting up with Walsall Road, near where the fly-over currently stands. Walsall Road will be "straightened out" to follow the route of the flyover, but at ground level, straight to the Crown & Cushion roundabout. 

The railway station and the shops adjoining it, and those over the road from it are also subject to compulsary purchase, so expect a new rail / bus interchange station to be built there, and the eyesore slum shops to be a thing of the past. These things are not shown in this drawing though.

 

[kitten2502]

Looking at CPO sheet 2 part of the stadium ground is included - somebody needs to ensure that the promotion are aware of this - over to you Brian Buck.

[uk_martin]

7 hours ago, kitten2502 said:

Looking at CPO sheet 2 part of the stadium ground is included - somebody needs to ensure that the promotion are aware of this - over to you Brian Buck.

Indeed, a corner of the car park could be lost to facilitate the Aldridge Road diversion and widening.

[Byker Biker]

On 12/28/2018 at 9:44 PM, uk_martin said:

Has everyone already forgotten the legal case that Mildenhall got embroiled with, and eventually lost?

Do bear in mind that the law on noise pollution changes after 11pm, there were a number of examples at Mildenhall where the complainants claimed motor sport activity on the moto cross course behind the main stadium had exceeded this and in one instance between midnight and 1 am. Allegedly some car meetings over ran beyond 11pm too, I clearly recall Peter Thorogood not being able to get onto the track some Saturdays until the early hours and worked through the night to prepare a Speedway surface.

[*JJ]

1 hour ago, Byker Biker said:

Do bear in mind that the law on noise pollution changes after 11pm, there were a number of examples at Mildenhall where the complainants claimed motor sport activity on the moto cross course behind the main stadium had exceeded this and in one instance between midnight and 1 am. Allegedly some car meetings over ran beyond 11pm too, I clearly recall Peter Thorogood not being able to get onto the track some Saturdays until the early hours and worked through the night to prepare a Speedway surface.

The speedway at Perry Barr rigidly finishes at 10pm.  No other form of motor sport takes place at the stadium: it's in the Planning Permission.

[uk_martin]

2 hours ago, Byker Biker said:

Do bear in mind that the law on noise pollution changes after 11pm, there were a number of examples at Mildenhall where the complainants claimed motor sport activity on the moto cross course behind the main stadium had exceeded this and in one instance between midnight and 1 am. Allegedly some car meetings over ran beyond 11pm too, I clearly recall Peter Thorogood not being able to get onto the track some Saturdays until the early hours and worked through the night to prepare a Speedway surface.

47 minutes ago, *JJ said:

The speedway at Perry Barr rigidly finishes at 10pm.  No other form of motor sport takes place at the stadium: it's in the Planning Permission.

 

Firstly, we are taking about Civil Law, specifically the Tort of "Nuisance", not Criminal Law, so "laws" on Noise Polution are not in question.

Secondly, none of the above gets around the legal point which was made by the judges ruling, that moving into an area where there is a pre-existing noise "nuisance", shouldn't prevent you from taking legal action against it.  Those who think that they can come and "change the world for the better" have that element of legal support now. And as this is a precident set as far up as in the House of Lords, it is binding on all lower courts too. And don't think that an appeal to the European Courts will change things, the Brexit voters cut off that avenue for the future.

Edited December 30, 2018 by uk_martin

[Byker Biker]

1 hour ago, uk_martin said:

 

Firstly, we are taking about Civil Law, specifically the Tort of "Nuisance", not Criminal Law, so "laws" on Noise Polution are not in question.

Secondly, none of the above gets around the legal point which was made by the judges ruling, that moving into an area where there is a pre-existing noise "nuisance", shouldn't prevent you from taking legal action against it.  Those who think that they can come and "change the world for the better" have that element of legal support now. And as this is a precident set as far up as in the House of Lords, it is binding on all lower courts too. And don't think that an appeal to the European Courts will change things, the Brexit voters cut off that avenue for the future.

Oh right, we're all fluffed then not just Birmingham!

[brianbuck]

My belief is that the Mildenhall case is unique in that the objection was persued by an extremist who evidently had the financial means to go to the lengths he did (although it is true that the stock car activities did sometimes go on until the small hours, so there would certainly have been at least a degree of justification for complaining.) Whether anyone living in Perry Barr would want or have the means to go to these extremes is debatable, but no doubt there will be some who sense that by complaining they could get a council tax reduction.

I would imagine that if the redevelopment plans include nicking some of the car parking area, then there will be a consultation with the stadium owners - who are not the GRA but are the City Council who lease the site to the GRA. The speedway promotion do have regular meetings with the GRA and have a very good relationship with them, so the matter of this redevelopment plan is certain to be raised.

[uk_martin]

7 hours ago, Byker Biker said:

Oh right, we're all fluffed then not just Birmingham!

Potentially...I've heard of cases (including one in Digbeth, I think) where people have moved in close to pubs that had regular music events, which could just about be heard outside of the pub, and the same legal precident was used in the stopping of the live music. It's not just speedway that this affects.

2 hours ago, brianbuck said:

My belief is that the Mildenhall case is unique in that the objection was persued by an extremist who evidently had the financial means to go to the lengths he did...

Whatever he was, the fact that it went to the House of Lords, means that local County Courts have a binding precedent to follow in the future. Future cases won't need the same level of financial clout unless it goes to appeal. Not sure if Legal Aid is available for these kind of claims either. If it is, anyone suitably clued up could be a "threat".

But at least it'll be some while away. It'll be 2022 when the Commonwealth Games take place, so it will be 2023 before the accommodation has been converted to house families etc. So another 4 or 5 years to prepare.

[Woz01]

I thought there was new legislation coming in where pre existing facilities near to new developments were exempt from noise issues?

Edited December 31, 2018 by Woz01

[Norfolk Bear]

On 12/29/2018 at 5:05 PM, brianbuck said:

Yes, the grandstand (or part of it), is a grade 2 listed building, and there is also a covenant stating that the land must be used for sport. There are of course though, ways and means of getting round these "obstacles" where there is a will to do so, so we can't totally rely on this for our future salvation. As things stand though, there is little or nothing that we can do but wait and see.

As UK Martin lives pretty close to the stadium, perhaps he can give an indication of how the very close "locals" feel about the development?

Don’t rely on the ‘Used for Sports Covenant, that was in place at Cleveland Park, Middlesbrough 

[Bluenose]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/35802685/live-music-venues-get-new-protection-from-housing-developersThis music event legislation came in on March 2016,

music events that go on for hours are safe,but about 15 minutes of racing is not ????

what with the widening of the road between the proposed build and the track which will

have more noise coming from it, are they going to move all the bus routes as well ? ?

Any Way ..................................................... have a HAPPY NEW YEAR   ..................K R O

Edited December 31, 2018 by Bluenose
mistake made

[uk_martin]

22 hours ago, Bluenose said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/35802685/live-music-venues-get-new-protection-from-housing-developersThis music event legislation came in on March 2016,

music events that go on for hours are safe,but about 15 minutes of racing is not ????...

...are they going to move all the bus routes as well ? ?

To the first point, I guess a lot will depend on what is considered to be in the public interest. Bear in mind that one decently attended concert at a live music venue will attract more people and younger people than the average crowd at many speedway stadiums.

To the second point, there are moves to encourage public and sustainable transport and to discourage private motoring. The City Centre will have a Carbon Curtain drawn around the Middle Ring Road in 2020, so that anyone heading to or through the city centre wil have to pay £10 for the privilage. The focus of this new "green agenda" will be on "moving people, not moving cars". So who knows what the noise situation from the roads will be in a few years time.