Thursdays - Use them or lose them!

[IainB]

All I remember is attending Coventry, Cradley, Eastbourne, Swindon etc etc on Saturday nights and always in front of healthy crowds, the ONLY thing that should dictate what night a club runs on is the availability of the stadium for the night a club wants to run on. GP riders seem to be able to make it to a Polish League match on a Sunday afternoon from wherever the GP event has been held on the Saturday night so why any other riders couldn't I fail to understand, Poland is 3 hours away max, on an early morning redeye they could be at the stadium by 11 am. Some riders are going to have to make some tough decisions either 30 odd matches in the UK or a handful in Poland. British Speedway can't be running it's business to suit others, it's never been at a better place to lay down some of its own rules, all of the prima Donna riders have been weened out of the league and with the country brexited by the start of next season there'll be no restriction of trade laws to block British Speedway doing its own thing. I think we all agree something radical needs to happen, Poland really shouldn't be an issue anymore!

[mikebv]

49 minutes ago, iainb said:

All I remember is attending Coventry, Cradley, Eastbourne, Swindon etc etc on Saturday nights and always in front of healthy crowds, the ONLY thing that should dictate what night a club runs on is the availability of the stadium for the night a club wants to run on. GP riders seem to be able to make it to a Polish League match on a Sunday afternoon from wherever the GP event has been held on the Saturday night so why any other riders couldn't I fail to understand, Poland is 3 hours away max, on an early morning redeye they could be at the stadium by 11 am. Some riders are going to have to make some tough decisions either 30 odd matches in the UK or a handful in Poland. British Speedway can't be running it's business to suit others, it's never been at a better place to lay down some of its own rules, all of the prima Donna riders have been weened out of the league and with the country brexited by the start of next season there'll be no restriction of trade laws to block British Speedway doing its own thing. I think we all agree something radical needs to happen, Poland really shouldn't be an issue anymore!

Spot on...

Sign up 100% to ride over here....

Or dont. ...

The Promoters will need to play their part by putting together a fixture list early enough, and sticking to it obviously...

I know, I know, I am laughing as I type...

[MattK]

9 minutes ago, mikebv said:

Spot on...

Sign up 100% to ride over here....

Or dont. ...

The Promoters will need to play their part by putting together a fixture list early enough, and sticking to it obviously...

I know, I know, I am laughing as I type...

What would you do with riders like Dan Bewley? He rode in a GP Challenge qualifier, four World U21 Individual meetings and two Team U21 meetings. That's seven weekends where he was unavailable for a Saturday meeting in Britain. Should he not be signed by any club as he isn't 100% committed to British speedway?

[IainB]

32 minutes ago, MattK said:

What would you do with riders like Dan Bewley? He rode in a GP Challenge qualifier, four World U21 Individual meetings and two Team U21 meetings. That's seven weekends where he was unavailable for a Saturday meeting in Britain. Should he not be signed by any club as he isn't 100% committed to British speedway?

Were they all on Saturday nights?

[lucifer sam]

Who actually cares what nights that Poland uses?  Friday, Saturday and Sunday are the best nights for attendances, so we should use them. The riders then have a simple choice.  It's about time the tail stopped wagging the dog.

[MattK]

9 minutes ago, iainb said:

Were they all on Saturday nights?

GP Challenge meetings are both Saturday, Under 21s Individual was two Fridays, one Saturday and one Sunday and Team U21s was both Saturdays.

Similarly for Robert Lambert, he rode in five SEC meetings (all Saturdays), two GP Challenge meetings, Four U21 individual meetings and two Speedway of Nations (one on Friday the other the following Saturday).

The ship has sailed for Saturday speedway unless you want to run a league at the amateur level.

[IainB]

5 minutes ago, MattK said:

The ship has sailed for Saturday speedway unless you want to run a league at the amateur level.

I'd say we're pretty much there. Club's will have to run on an alternate night if they want to pander to their "star" rider otherwise the likes of Lambert/Bewley etc will have to do a Woffinden and ride exclusively abroad. Not what anybody wants to see be we can't run the whole sport for a handful of riders. The other solution is squads

[John Scrutton]

Saturdays are out as far as Kings Lynn is concerned  as the Stadium is used nearly every Weekend for Stock Cars and Speedway couldn't run on its own.  and as so many  Teams are in trouble at present  without any others joining to list

Quote

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by John Scrutton

[MattK]

3 minutes ago, iainb said:

I'd say we're pretty much there. Club's will have to run on an alternate night if they want to pander to their "star" rider otherwise the likes of Lambert/Bewley etc will have to do a Woffinden and ride exclusively abroad. Not what anybody wants to see be we can't run the whole sport for a handful of riders. The other solution is squads

It isn't a handful of riders I'm afraid:

GP Challenge

Ricky Wells
Krzysztof Kasprzak x2
Jack Holder x2
Niels-Kristian Iversen x2
Robert Lambert x2
Brady Kurtz
Jacob Thorssell
Daniel Bewley
Bradley Wilson-Dean
Kenneth Bjerre x2
David Bellego x2
Kevin Wölbert x2
Chris Harris
Rohan Tungate
Nicolas Covatti
Craig Cook x2
Hans Andersen x2
Max Fricke x2
Kyle Howarth

World U21s (Four meetings)
Robert Lambert
Daniel Bewley

Team U21s (Two meetings)
Daniel Bewley
Ellis Perks
Zach Wajtknecht
Nathan Greaves
Connor Mountain

SoN (Two weekends)
Woffinden
Cook
Lambert

Are you suggesting clubs should avoid signing any of the above riders or that the riders above should be forced to choose between the British league and their individual aspirations?

The whole point of fixed race nights is to avoid the inevitable clashes with the lower division, foreign leagues and the meetings as described above.

I agree that attendances where significantly higher when clubs ran at weekends, but Britain was also the dominant league featuring all the world's top riders. Which of those (weekend meetings or top riders) was the biggest draw is open to debate.

[waytogo28]

6 minutes ago, MattK said:

The whole point of fixed race nights is to avoid the inevitable clashes with the lower division, foreign leagues and the meetings as described above

So be it if we are stuck with fixed race nights - likely Monday. If it also turns out that supporters don't want meetings on Mondays, the BSPA and clubs will have a clear, definite answer. No Thank You. Promoters can then decide on what is really their lowest crowd numbers that are viable or go on the hunt for more sponsors prepared to run in front of sub 1,000 or even sub 500 crowds ( at whatever level ).

[IainB]

10 minutes ago, MattK said:

It isn't a handful of riders I'm afraid:

GP Challenge

Ricky Wells
Krzysztof Kasprzak x2
Jack Holder x2
Niels-Kristian Iversen x2
Robert Lambert x2
Brady Kurtz
Jacob Thorssell
Daniel Bewley
Bradley Wilson-Dean
Kenneth Bjerre x2
David Bellego x2
Kevin Wölbert x2
Chris Harris
Rohan Tungate
Nicolas Covatti
Craig Cook x2
Hans Andersen x2
Max Fricke x2
Kyle Howarth

World U21s (Four meetings)
Robert Lambert
Daniel Bewley

Team U21s (Two meetings)
Daniel Bewley
Ellis Perks
Zach Wajtknecht
Nathan Greaves
Connor Mountain

SoN (Two weekends)
Woffinden
Cook
Lambert

Are you suggesting clubs should avoid signing any of the above riders or that the riders above should be forced to choose between the British league and their individual aspirations?

The whole point of fixed race nights is to avoid the inevitable clashes with the lower division, foreign leagues and the meetings as described above.

I agree that attendances where significantly higher when clubs ran at weekends, but Britain was also the dominant league featuring all the world's top riders. Which of those (weekend meetings or top riders) was the biggest draw is open to debate.

Do you really think that if forced to make a decision the likes of Ricky Wells, and most of the others you mention, is going to choose to ride in a GP qualifier at the expense of a whole League season?

If you're trying to attract a whole new fan base you've got to run at weekends any newbie coming along isn't going to know who the hell Krzysztof Kasprzak is they're not even going to be able to pronounce it... They will be able to identify who their home town club is though

[MattK]

1 minute ago, iainb said:

Do you really think that if forced to make a decision the likes of Ricky Wells, and most of the others you mention, is going to choose to ride in a GP qualifier at the expense of a whole League season?

If you're trying to attract a whole new fan base you've got to run at weekends any newbie coming along isn't going to know who the hell Krzysztof Kasprzak is they're not even going to be able to pronounce it... They will be able to identify who their home town club is though

Not the likes of Ricky Wells, but what about Iversen, Cook, Fricke, Holder, Bewley, Lambert and so on?

I disagree that speedway needs to run at weekends to attract new fans. There is no reason new fans cannot attend midweek meeting IF speedway actually made an effort to actually promote itself.

[IainB]

1 minute ago, MattK said:

Not the likes of Ricky Wells, but what about Iversen, Cook, Fricke, Holder, Bewley, Lambert and so on?

I disagree that speedway needs to run at weekends to attract new fans. There is no reason new fans cannot attend midweek meeting IF speedway actually made an effort to actually promote itself.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, as for your list neither of us really knows but I suspect Cook, Bewley would stay UK maybe Holder and Fricke as they live here and wouldn't be able to if they didn't also work here but I think NKI and Lambert would be off

[hyderd]

14 hours ago, Aces51 said:

If we have to go with the fixed nights then it should be Monday and Thursday. Wolves, King's Lynn and Poole on Mondays and the remaining existing PL tracks on Thursdays. Any newcomers to be allocated to keep the numbers on each night as equal as possible. 

Really can't see Belle Vue riding on any night other than Fridays, crowds were very poor last season riding on the Monday nights, when compared to the 2017 season when we rode on our favoured night Friday.Our promoters are through and through Businessmen, I can't see them bailing out again, for another under supported season. Cookie is not in the GP's this coming season and Max is only 2nd reserve, so assuming we start the season including both in our 1-7 Friday night's at Belle Vue should be fairly easy to sort out. Finally I for 1 would move heaven and earth to get Max back next season, he is so entertaining round the NSS.

[magnificentseven]

17 hours ago, A ORLOV said:

That could mean that any number up to about  ten riders from this year will not always be available due to Polish and other meetings. 

Sadly it is time for British Speedway to think of itself and form a league based on costs that are practicable and riders who are available here for the majority of the time.

The likelihood is that this would inevitably lead to a weakened league in terms of top riders but it would at least survive and hopefully over time would recover.

Drastic action is required and we cannot keep adapting to solely accommodate the top riders as the sport cannot cope with them as it is.

[IainB]

19 minutes ago, magnificentseven said:

Drastic action is required and we cannot keep adapting to solely accommodate the top riders as the sport cannot cope with them as it is.

... And the trouble now is that we are adapting to solely accommodate distinctly average riders!

[Aces51]

38 minutes ago, hyderd said:

Really can't see Belle Vue riding on any night other than Fridays, crowds were very poor last season riding on the Monday nights, when compared to the 2017 season when we rode on our favoured night Friday.Our promoters are through and through Businessmen, I can't see them bailing out again, for another under supported season. Cookie is not in the GP's this coming season and Max is only 2nd reserve, so assuming we start the season including both in our 1-7 Friday night's at Belle Vue should be fairly easy to sort out. Finally I for 1 would move heaven and earth to get Max back next season, he is so entertaining round the NSS.

I agree with everything you say which is why I said, if we have to go with fixed nights, meaning either Monday, Wednesday or Monday, Thursday. In my opinion to continue on a Monday will be commercial suicide. Mark Lemon did say in this week's SS that crowds had improved as the season went on but that he didn't know why. I suspect that school holidays, the prospect of getting into and then being in the play offs and the latter stages of the KO Cup may have played a significant part.

As for returning to Saturdays, even putting aside all of the practicalities, I am not sure that it is now a better option than Friday. Saturday is the night when TV puts on it's most popular programmes, many football games are played and the main night for people to go out. The competition for the leisure pound is much greater now  than it was when many tracks operated on a Saturday whereas Friday has the advantage of no school the next day and people still have Saturday to go somewhere if wife/husband/partner is not a speedway fan.

[INCOGNITO]

2 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

Who actually cares what nights that Poland uses?  Friday, Saturday and Sunday are the best nights for attendances, so we should use them. The riders then have a simple choice.  It's about time the tail stopped wagging the dog.

They don't have a choice as missing a priority fixture such as Sweden or Poland then they will have their licence held and be inline for a 28 day ban. Without a licence they wouldn't be allowed to race anywhere. 

 

Sweden will only run a few meetings on a Thirsday so any rider in the top league there would only clash if they had a fixture here on a Thursday, the same with Poland who will be running their four top league matches on Friday and Saturday but half of these (two) would still be Sunday's, so it's only the odd meeting that might clash. 

 

There red are not that many Polish Extraliga riders riding here so take Max Fricke as an example, if Wroclaw have two Friday meetings next season, Belle Vue try and miss these clashes which in one league of 17 home matches is possible with 20-23 Friday's available. Most of Frickes meetings in Poland will be on a Sunday still.

 

As for Sweden, the list may be a bit longer as Poland is obviously stronger, but Sweden may well only be doing a couple on the Thursday so hopefully Britain can arrange their fixtures around those few clashes. There may be a few clashes, but if these are more the mid team riders , tracks can use RR or a guest but it won't be very often. 

 

If Britain runs one league at Championship level in order to afford running costs, wages, riding on chosen nights and developing British youngsters then clashes won't be noticed if run correctly but we will have a league that can be used to rebuild British Speedway over the next few years and at a affordable and reasonable entrance fee to entice fans that are now going once in a while but also attract new fans. 

 

By by reducing the costs at Championship level, the Premiership tracks dropping down would already have saved a considerable sum so reducing the cost of entrance wouldn't make clubs any worse off and could in fact see them make more of a profit but if they keep the same prices, they are just going to see crowds reducing week by week. 

[SteveLyric2]

1 hour ago, magnificentseven said:

Sadly it is time for British Speedway to think of itself and form a league based on costs that are practicable and riders who are available here for the majority of the time.

The likelihood is that this would inevitably lead to a weakened league in terms of top riders but it would at least survive and hopefully over time would recover.

Drastic action is required and we cannot keep adapting to solely accommodate the top riders as the sport cannot cope with them as it is.

What about the clubs who CAN afford to operate at a 'top' level and their fans demand it??  They should be allowed and encouraged to do just that, whilst running a 'B' team in the weaker league.  If its only 5, 6, 7 or 8 teams that fit that category then call it a Super League or an Elite League with a decent points limit and with a low maximum number of fixtures to attract some of the top riders and then a B team (without any top riders) to run with a lower points limit and with a reduced admission price.

As long as the scenario is financially sound for those clubs - and more importantly its what the fans and sponsors of those clubs want to see -  then why shouldn't there be a structure that allows them to do it? 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Skidder1

[magnificentseven]

2 minutes ago, Skidder1 said:

What about the clubs who CAN afford to operate at a 'top' level and their fans demand it??  They should be allowed and encouraged to do just that, whilst running a 'B' team in the weaker league.  If its only 5, 6, 7 or 8 teams that fit that category then call it a Super League or an Elite League with a decent points limit and with a maximum number of fixtures to attract some of the top riders and then a B team (without any top riders) to run with a lower points limit and with a reduced admission price.

As long as the scenario is financially sound for those clubs - and more importantly its what the fans of those clubs want to see -  then why shouldn't there be a structure that allows them to do it? 

How many teams are you talking about here?

Poole maybe - but surely the fact that Matt wants to sell is an indication that costs may be building up - and if no buyer found is there is a doubt?

Swindon? - will they have a track? Can they afford top league racing? Doubtful on both counts

Wolves - maybe but CVS is well known for cutting his cloth to suit and may be looking at cutting costs and unlikely to want to run two teams as he's done that before and lost out.

Belle Vue? maybe they could be interested as they would want to be at the top level.

King's Lynn - must be a doubt over their interest in an exclusive top league club as unlikely that NKI will be back and also maybe doubts over Lambert - their asset base would be better suited to a larger lower standard league.

Leicester are already rumoured to be wanting to drop down so unlikely to be interested in a top league.

Somerset - probably in a good position to choose as they have their own track and own assets but unlikely to want to run two teams and more likely to want to run in a larger lower standard league.

By my reckoning that's 3 maybe 4 teams that would be interested in a top league and that is clearly not going to work.

Unlikely that any current Championship clubs would be interested in a top league other than maybe Glasgow and that would be financial suicide given the lack of local derbies.