Workington 2019

[TotallyHonestJohn]

Here is a genuine question? (lights blue touch paper and stands well back)

Everyone has an opinion on what the entry fee should be to watch speedway. (Open to all)
Many are of the opinion that it is a £10 quid sport.
Here are some indicative prices
Cinema tickets average from £8 to £12 
Average price of West End tickets £35 to £65
Provincial Theatre £15 to £59
Premiership Football £25 to £99
Premiership Rugby £12 to £18 standing £21 to £35 seated
Ice Hockey £10 to £20
Basketball £18

So what do you think is a reasonable price for watching Speedway in 2019?
Should there be an age concession as pensioners now have more disposable cash than workers these days
Glasgow have done away with the age Concession (is it ageist to discriminate against older/younger people)

So as a rough guide there are two ranges
(and lets base it on an average crowd of 500 adults and 50 under 16's)

Adult between 16 and 160?
Child Under 16?

More to follow

Regards
THJ

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by TotallyHonestJohn
missed out key word

[Fromafar]

6 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said:

Here is a genuine question? (lights blue touch paper and stands well back)

Everyone has an opinion on what the entry fee should be to watch speedway. (Open to all)
Many are of the opinion that it is a £10 quid sport.
Here are some indicative prices
Cinema tickets average from £8 to £12 
Average price of West End tickets £35 to £65
Provincial Theatre £15 to £59
Premiership Football £25 to £99
Premiership Rugby £12 to £18 standing £21 to £35 seated
Ice Hockey £10 to £20
Basketball £18

So what do you think is a reasonable price for watching Speedway in 2019?
Should there be an age concession as pensioners now have more disposable cash than workers these days
Glasgow have done away with the age Concession (is it ageist to discriminate against older/younger people)

So as a rough guide there are two ranges
(and lets base it on an average crowd of 500 adults and 50 under 16's)

Adult between 16 and 160?
Child Under 16?

More to follow

Regards
THJ

 

Pensioners have more disposable income then workers!!!,where does that stat come from?

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

53 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Pensioners have more disposable income then workers!!!,where does that stat come from?

There have been a few studies/articles setting out this point which have resulted in some heated debates on several threads

[singy13]

56 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said:

So what do you think is a reasonable price for watching Speedway in 2019?
Should there be an age concession as pensioners now have more disposable cash than workers these days
Glasgow have done away with the age Concession (is it ageist to discriminate against older/younger people)

I don't see Speedway as a £10 sport at all, too little for top entertainment.......the 2018 rates at Workington being fair for all. (£16 and £13.....kids ???)

Yes pensioners should have their concession................those who disagree will be guaranteed to change their minds in the future....shame on greedy Glasgow.

"pensioners have more disposable income than workers.".....wow. no way ....especially if you work at Sellafield...top pay......outdoes pension by far....had taste of this former comfort and now on much less via latter coz of age.....not by choice lol.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

1 hour ago, TotallyHonestJohn said:

(and lets base it on an average crowd of 500 adults and 50 under 16's)

Ive cut it down to what I see as the most important point

Whilst the sport can only attract 500 or so then the price charged is almost irrelevant IMO

 

[TotallyHonestJohn]

56 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

There have been a few studies/articles setting out this point which have resulted in some heated debates on several threads

Correct and I didn't want to get into this; however

It is assumed that older persons have all the things they need by the time they reach an age such as a mortgage that will be paid off, or assistance with rent and poll tax. Disposable income is defined as money that a person has left over to spend as he/she wishes after all of their required expenses have been paid. An example of disposable income is the £100 left in your account once all of your bills have been paid, persons of a younger age will have more coincidental bills. My old fella (85 coming up) saves a grand every ten weeks from his pensions. I work and have three leeches (oops shouldn't call the kids that but you know what I mean) who are a drain on my resources. Its a lifestyle choice and not everybody is the same there are "haves" and "have not's" in all strata's of life.

The Office of National Statistics produced a report in August 2017 that proved this fact that average disposable income is increasing at a faster rate for retirees than for people of working age in the UK, as Britain’s once-generous occupational pension schemes mature, according to an analysts. 

However, the study — which considered pensioners’ living standards during the past 40 years and was actually published by the ONS — showed that the growing role of private pension income has contributed to widening inequality among pensioners.

Between 1977 and 2015-16, the disposable income of retired households increased on average by 2.8 per cent a year, after accounting for inflation and changes to household composition, compared with average annual growth among non-retired households of 2.1 per cent.

Overall, this has contributed to a sharp fall in pensioner poverty. In 1977, pensioners were more than twice as likely to be in poverty as the population as a whole. They now face roughly the same chance of living in poverty as the general population. If anyone is interested and can't sleep the link is below

https://www.ft.com/content/1549789a-7c42-11e7-9108-edda0bcbc928

But I don't want to go down that route because when can you call someone a pensioner these days without sounding ageist, also there is no retirement age now so it is a bit of a misnomer

However sorry if I have offended anyone that was not my intention I have asked a blunt question and therefore getting back to the question

What is a fair entry fee to watch Speedway for the following demographics

Adult between 16 and 160?
Child Under 16?

Regards
THJ

[Gunner85]

2 hours ago, Fromafar said:

Pensioners have more disposable income then workers!!!,where does that stat come from?

Not all of them... some have tight budgets

The vast majority of entertainment venues have reductions for pensioners and so they should

[TotallyHonestJohn]

1 hour ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Ive cut it down to what I see as the most important point

Whilst the sport can only attract 500 or so then the price charged is almost irrelevant IMO

 

Bruv hear what you are saying and do not fundamentally disagree however if the sport is attracting these numbers you have to cut your cloth to length. So 500 people paying £15 generates £7500 this has to pay for 1 home and 1 away meeting  7 riders on £55 a point as a team average (which is very (very) conservative) and to win the league you pay out an average of 63 points at home and 52 points away (these figures include bonus points) is a wage bill of £6325 add in a stadium rent of £1200  and a fuel bill of  £262.50 (7 x 250 @ 0.15 pence per mile) 14 tyres at £15 = £210 before you pay for the likes of insurances and the incidental costs associated that's your £7500 gone. The costs given are very basic to running a team, so that 500 figure is (my uneducated guess) the bottom line as far as a fan base can go I believe without changing other factors. So you have forced my hand sooner than I wanted to show it (crafty sod lol) however that is why I asked the question.

The often heard cry is "its a £10 quid sport" however not under the current structure its not, it cant be unless you have a "Sugar Daddy" with bottomless pockets, furthermore clubs have tried £10 entry meetings and put zip on the crowd figures. So; and this is totally from a viable business perspective and looking at it as a businessman; what is needed to support a Championship Winning team financially. (without the need of a benefactor willing to write off thousands of pounds).

500 adults at £16 = £8000
500 adults at £18 = £9000
500 adults at £20 = £10,000

What do people perceive as value for money to watch a championship (hopefully wining) speedway team
What interests me is at what price would you kill it, £25 a head? Thought I had posted a sensible question but it looks like I am going to get slaughtered. (Glasgow had the idea first to do away with a pensioner rate, I'm just fishing out of curiosity) There are only certain things you can do and something has to give. So 6 man teams and a reduced wage bill, get the average points money down to £40 a point across the team and this gets the wage bill down to £4600 however the big question that brings up is what standard of rider can you bring in? Will the product still make all those fans happy or by diluting the product do you lose another 100 off the gate further reducing the income, its "Catch 22"

Of course the other remedy is find another 250 fans which isn't many is it,  (not much) giving out free tickets a few seasons back only put 260 on the crowd, although the average did go up by 11 in subsequent weeks. So the question still remains how much are people prepared to pay for a competitive championship team or how much can they tolerate if the team just takes part never having the opportunity to win anything?

Regards
THJ

Edited November 6, 2018 by TotallyHonestJohn
Spelling, Spell Check and Eyesight

[TotallyHonestJohn]

38 minutes ago, Gunner85 said:

Not all of them... some have tight budgets

The vast majority of entertainment venues have reductions for pensioners and so they should

But why should they? why cant I pay the same price as a pensioner, its Ageist, I as a younger person, or person who is perceived (or is) less than retirement age! why cant I pay the same as a pensioner, we both watch the same 4 guys going round a track, so maybe the question should be what should a person "67 or over" pay to watch Speedway and a person under 16. (by the way I have put 67 as that is the age I can officially get my pension. note I didn't say old age pension as I believe that is not not politically correct)

So the revised question is

Adult over 67?
Child Under 16?

Regards
THJ

 

 

[jenga]

i take it this is leading up to getting rid of concessions for older fans . there are prob more older fans than young uns around following speedway .

but i think the present entry fee is good and needs no tweaking , HOWEVER the  start time in march  is way too cold for the young uns and some older gits ..

running speedway in oct ish is crazy. in reality we all want to be watching speedway in summer , short n t shirtz . families enjoying the sun on their backs and getting covered in dust . 

so for me , personally .the going rate is just about on the money . 

B.S.P,A./S.C.B.  built it and they will come (taken from ..  a field of dreams,,,  film )

 

[singy13]

20 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said:

But why should they? why cant I pay the same price as a pensioner, its Ageist, I as a younger person, or person who is perceived (or is) less than retirement age! why cant I pay the same as a pensioner, we both watch the same 4 guys going round a track, so maybe the question should be what should a person "67 or over" pay to watch Speedway and a person under 16. (by the way I have put 67 as that is the age I can officially get my pension. note I didn't say old age pension as I believe that is not not politically correct)

So the revised question is

Adult over 67?
Child Under 16?

Regards
THJ

 

 

Ok so next you'll be wanting a bloomin bus pass to get there then?

And the only assistance re poll tax, it is Council Tax btw, that I know of, is when you live alone you get a 25% discount.....not great when you lose someone dear to you to get that though pls believe me.....and you'll maybe, just maybe, get to a situation in your life when you'll find such concessions worthwhile....young fella........

 

[Chris116]

4 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said:

Here is a genuine question? (lights blue touch paper and stands well back)

Everyone has an opinion on what the entry fee should be to watch speedway. (Open to all)
Many are of the opinion that it is a £10 quid sport.
Here are some indicative prices
Cinema tickets average from £8 to £12 
Average price of West End tickets £35 to £65
Provincial Theatre £15 to £59
Premiership Football £25 to £99
Premiership Rugby £12 to £18 standing £21 to £35 seated
Ice Hockey £10 to £20
Basketball £18

So what do you think is a reasonable price for watching Speedway in 2019?
Should there be an age concession as pensioners now have more disposable cash than workers these days
Glasgow have done away with the age Concession (is it ageist to discriminate against older/younger people)

So as a rough guide there are two ranges
(and lets base it on an average crowd of 500 adults and 50 under 16's)

Adult between 16 and 160?
Child Under 16?

More to follow

Regards
THJ

 

The above post in this thread gives a list of costs for entertainment. It misss out the cost of Stock Car, Banger and Hot Rod meetings which range from around £10 to £20 for normal meetings depending on which classes are racing and which stadium/promoter is involved. When I started watching both bikes and cars on stadium ovals in the late 50s and 60s the cost of going to cars and bikes was between 4/- and 7/6d (20p to 38p for those who don't remember proper money). The cost of top league football was also in a similar range but football admission prices have gone up more than oval racing due to the massive wage increases in football. I have purchased tickets to two matches at Fulham for myself and my wife this season. One game cost £55 for the two of us and the other £85. At Rye House this season it cost £18 for adults and £16 for over 60s so for two meetings for the two of us it would have totalled £64 while football has cost £140 which, for what I have seen so far this year makes speedway admission prices reasonable. I would love it to be cheaper but the costs of running or hiring a stadium plus insurance and staff make that unlikely. The riders are often blamed for wanting too much money for racing but how many of us would be prepared to take the risks they take in pursuit of making a living?

From the end of World War Two until the mid 60s there was very little entertainment at home (two TV channels, four radio channels plus Luxembourg and the pirates), now we have goodness knows how many TV channels, a massive number of radio stations, videos, DVDs and internet. People have reduced how often they go out and become couch potatoes who except for football and firework displays very rarely go out and that has hit speedway and a number of other sports badly. 

I don't see how the promoters can beat the change in habits of most families but a little real promoting would help. Rye House had a large advertising board at the entrance with the date and time of the next meeting. When I arrived for meetings it normally showed the date of the previous meeting or was blank! I know there was limited passing traffic but what traffic there was did not get the message about the racing and would have thought that it had maybe closed months before it actually it. A bad case of not helping your own promotion! Those of us who the BSPA have not alienated need to start taking friends and do our best to encourage them to keep coming back, I know the BSPA make it hard to justify the sport being professional but we need to do our best if we are to be able to continue enjoying the racing we love.

[TotallyHonestJohn]

33 minutes ago, singy13 said:

Ok so next you'll be wanting a bloomin bus pass to get there then?

And the only assistance re poll tax, it is Council Tax btw, that I know of, is when you live alone you get a 25% discount.....not great when you lose someone dear to you to get that though pls believe me.....and you'll maybe, just maybe, get to a situation in your life when you'll find such concessions worthwhile....young fella........

 

Apologies, not looking for an argument, fully agree and I did say I was setting myself up with the question, and believe me I ain't that young (but I was once and with a good memory, and with the looks of Brad Pitt; however I now look more like his older brother Arm) and it was a pointed question and potentially key to whether you get a side capable of winning something going forward or whether they tread water, the point being you can not have a Rolls Royce for the price of a Mini.

At what point do you kill it, currently the team is not sustainable financially and something has to give. Workington could (because of averages) run with the exact same team next season all seven or any 5 plus Kyle if we go to 6 man teams, however due to the success the team has enjoyed it has made it a tad expensive. If they had played ball and lost their away matches by 55 or more and only won their home matches 49 to 41 the losses might have been bearable and manageable. However there would have been no silverware on Laura's sideboard; But no this lot didn't know when they were beaten and confounded all the pundits and experts and swept the board. Brilliant (in fact its better than brilliant, think of a superlative multiply that by a googolplex and you are just starting to register on the scale of brilliance as to how brilliant they were)

So Jenga can tell you about the team of 1980 and what happened after that season, this is the only sport were winning something costs you a fortune, but would you be happy to be bottom of the league just to watch speedway, I know people who didn't turn up to the Edinburgh meeting because we were that far behind so they wouldn't come.

What are people prepared to pay to watch a good standard of Speedway. Do people want to pay the same but the team will change, do they want to pay less and get a side out just to watch speedway or are they prepared to pay a little more and lets see what happens and I have tried to turn the question on its head by saying the following so as not to discriminate or upset anyone (however it looks like I am failing miserably. again sorry for that) Oh and I believe Ian Thomas used to lay on a free bus and that didn't work either so your bus pass is safe.

Adult over 67?
Child Under 16?

Regards
THJ

[TotallyHonestJohn]

3 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

It misss out the cost of Stock Car, Banger and Hot Rod meetings which range from around £10 to £20 for normal meetings depending on which classes are racing and which stadium/promoter is involved. 

Yep as we don't seem to see it up here in the cold North these days any more and the Stock Car racing at Brough Park was great in the day however and I am sure Steve Park or Tsunami will be able to correct me on this but the last time I seen Stocks at Brough was early 70's possibly 71 or 72 and as a kid I loved them. I would gladly pay £20 to go to a stock and banger meeting if it was reasonably local. The Demolition Derby and the Caravan races were the ones I remember the best, absolutely brilliant. Happy days. 

Only thing was we were hard up as church mice and used to sneak in for free (I would pay now honest)

Jesus I am such a hypocrite at times sorry (former ragamuffin who made good!!! honest!!!)

Regards
THJ

[kevcfc]

£16 is fair enough for something you really enjoy, but how do you attract the "floating voter" at that price? I've tried and tried to sell it to folk before, and they're usually genuinely interested - until they ask the price. The last person I spoke to about it said she'd take the kids to the pictures instead. I think it was £7 (or £7:50)back in 1999 when speedway returned, now I certainly not saying it still should be that price but at present prices I think its definitely built itself a barrier to attracting new customers. Of course there's no guarantee at, say, £10 that you'll attract new custom, and who has the cash to bare the costs of trying if it all goes belly up? 

As for the concessions, my old fella came to his first meeting of the season for the championship play off final. He's 65, gets his pension, works full time and earns double what I do. In short, he's got money coming out of his ears. It cost him less to get in than me. Go figure. Now I wouldn't have a problem with concessions for those who had actually retired (along with those on low incomes) but there is probably no way of differentiating between the haves and have nots at the turnstile. 

Anyway, I'll have to cut this shorter than I'd like because I've got work to do :-p but personally I'm happy paying £16, even though I have concerns about how much it helps the sport in the long run. 

[Chris116]

Over the years I have watched Wimbledon with Ronnie Moore when the locals thought it was a bad meeting if the visitors go within 10 points of the Dons! Provincial League racing at Hackney, plus racing in all three leagues over the last 30 years whatever they were called at the time. After 60 years of watching racing, in my opinion, it is not how good the riders are that in fact matters, it is that the teams are of similar standard. I would much prefer to watch a National League match that ends 46-44 than a Premiership match featuring the World Champion and another GP rider which ends 60-30. The advantage of lower division racing is that they make mistakes so there is often more overtaking and fewer from the gate processions. If the BSPA can get racing that is close with passing then whether the races take 55 seconds or 59 seconds will not matter as people will be enjoying the close racing and not be worried about who the riders are.

[singy13]

5 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said:

So Jenga can tell you about the team of 1980 and what happened after that season, this is the only sport were winning something costs you a fortune, but would you be happy to be bottom of the league just to watch speedway, I know people who didn't turn up to the Edinburgh meeting because we were that far behind so they wouldn't come.

Yes in 1980 we won two matches = 4 points = bottom by a home straight....and I remember 1981 nearly as bad a but up the table a couple I think.....I recall counting the folk present quite easily....well the racing was so boring you see.

And certainly there were people who didn't give Comets much chance in the 2nd leg v Monarchs....I went just to get some fresh air....and that remarkable comeback was my favourite speedway experience of 2018.

I don't get all this "what price would you pay" that you are in top gear about........if the entertainment is worth it the public will hand over the cash.....grumble about it of course it's what we do best.

[topaz325]

Cannot really generalise about concessions some pensioners are well off, some are scraping by , the current admission cost is about right .......if we (Worky) we’re getting about 800-1000 people through the gates!

Do not really know what the future holds for Speedway in this country , riders want to ride in different leagues (double up/ down) to make ends meet but fans want to see their own riders every week and not go missing either for other British teams or riding abroad.

We need to make the sport more credible and professional but I do not have all the answers , it’s all about costs, riders want more money and who can blame them whilst fans want value for money.i

A slick well run meeting between April and September with October as a last resort is what is needed but will things change as fans on This forum have been speaking out but the promotions do not listen!,

Edited November 6, 2018 by topaz325

[Chris116]

2 minutes ago, topaz325 said:

Cannot really generalise about concessions some pensioners are well off, some are scraping by , the current admission cost is about right .......if we (Worky) we’re getting about 800-1000 people through the gates!

Do not really know what the future holds for Speedway in this country , riders want to ride in different leagues (double up/ down) to make ends meet but fans want to see their own riders every week and not go missing either for other British teams or riding abroad.

We need to make the sport more credible and professional but I do not have the answers , it’s all about costs, riders want more and who can blame them whilst fans want value for money.

A slick well run meeting between April and September with October as a last resort is what is needed but will things change as fans on Thisbe forum have been speaking out but the promotions do not listen!,

I would suggest a slick, well run meeting (Frank Ebdon as referee always used to help with the slick running of meetings!) in the league between April and August with September for Play-off meetings for the top teams in the league and a Trophy/Shield event for the teams not involved in the Play-offs. That way even teams who have a bad year can get some silverwear!

[TotallyHonestJohn]

3 minutes ago, singy13 said:

Yes in 1980 we won two matches = 4 points = bottom by a home straight....and I remember 1981 nearly as bad a but up the table a couple I think.....I recall counting the folk present quite easily....well the racing was so boring you see.

And certainly there were people who didn't give Comets much chance in the 2nd leg v Monarchs....I went just to get some fresh air....and that remarkable comeback was my favourite speedway experience of 2018.

I don't get all this "what price would you pay" that you are in top gear about........if the entertainment is worth it the public will hand over the cash.....grumble about it of course it's what we do best.

It was just out of curiosity with the predicament the club now finds itself in financially and winning the treble. There must be a cut off at where someone stops grumbling and says enough is enough £15; £20, £30, £50 whatever; there has to be a point where someone says that isn't worth the money and gives up. Like me now... a give in...

Oh and I fully agree with you that Edinburgh meeting, absolutely something else against a quality team, I even bought the away DVD as well as the Home one, that was pure entertainment as were the three finals and the Glasgow Semi... fantastic...

Regards
THJ