AGM November 2018

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

5 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

APPARTENTLY there will be no visit to the House of Commons this year. 

Good, always felt like one insult to the fan to far 

[Fromafar]

Reading between the lines in this weeks SS if the Premiership Promotions can get Team  to move up its sod the rest,but I get the impression that there's a few  Championship Teams in a bit of trouble financially.Looks like a bit of a stalemate  between leagues . No easy answer . A poll between fans would be Interesring.Personaly 1 league.

[MattK]

20 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Reading between the lines in this weeks SS if the Premiership Promotions can get Team  to move up its sod the rest,but I get the impression that there's a few  Championship Teams in a bit of trouble financially.Looks like a bit of a stalemate  between leagues . No easy answer . A poll between fans would be Interesring.Personaly 1 league.

Why would Championship teams agree to one big league, as it would result in an increase in their costs with no increase in revenues?

[foamfence]

6 minutes ago, MattK said:

Why would Championship teams agree to one big league, as it would result in an increase in their costs with no increase in revenues?

Why would it? The rumoured suggestion was that teams strengths be at Championship level, surely more different opponents would be a boost for everyone.

[ch958]

8 minutes ago, MattK said:

Why would Championship teams agree to one big league, as it would result in an increase in their costs with no increase in revenues?

there is such a thing as not letting costs increase, taking control of the situation, stop the tail wagging the dog.

Play the league at D2 level - if Somerset have Doyle, then they'd have not much else, so be it. He can't be in every heat.

I personally believe crowds would respond to the variety of fixtures and there would be an increase in revenue. 

I know there are arguments against what i have said but we simply can not go on like this

[MattK]

14 minutes ago, foamfence said:

Why would it? The rumoured suggestion was that teams strengths be at Championship level, surely more different opponents would be a boost for everyone.

Costs would increase because currently the points money paid by Championship clubs are subsidised by riders doubling-up at Premiership level. Therefore with one league, Championship clubs would have to compete with Premiership clubs for the signature of the same rider.

For example, take Nick Morris. He rode for Swindon in the Premiership and let's say he received £100 a point. He also rode in the Championship for Lakeside and received £75 a point.

Who would Nick Morris ride for in one big league? The answer is simple, the team who pays him the most.

Therefore, Swindon already have a business model allowing them to pay a rider like Nick Morris £100 a point. If Lakeside want to secure the services of Nick Morris they will have to pay 25% more in 2019 than they did in 2018 in order to compete with Swindon for his signature.

Couple this with the fact that one big league means there are potentially 19 clubs chasing the signatures of heatleaders and a reduction in the number of riders firstly due to the removal of doubling-up and secondly riders who can't commit to Friday, Saturday and Sunday racing in Britain dropping out.

Whether more variety would boost attendances remains to be seen. What we know for a fact, as we have seen it happen over the last decade, is that if you reduce the strength of the league fewer people attend.

[MattK]

17 minutes ago, ch958 said:

there is such a thing as not letting costs increase, taking control of the situation, stop the tail wagging the dog.

Play the league at D2 level - if Somerset have Doyle, then they'd have not much else, so be it. He can't be in every heat.

I personally believe crowds would respond to the variety of fixtures and there would be an increase in revenue. 

I know there are arguments against what i have said but we simply can not go on like this

The tail wagging the dog argument is equally applicable today, yet clubs still build teams to be competitive, rather than to break even.

This is the problem, speedway is a competitive sport. Every club starts the season wanting to win on the track, rather than in the accountant's office.

[foamfence]

51 minutes ago, MattK said:

Costs would increase because currently the points money paid by Championship clubs are subsidised by riders doubling-up at Premiership level. Therefore with one league, Championship clubs would have to compete with Premiership clubs for the signature of the same rider.

For example, take Nick Morris. He rode for Swindon in the Premiership and let's say he received £100 a point. He also rode in the Championship for Lakeside and received £75 a point.

Who would Nick Morris ride for in one big league? The answer is simple, the team who pays him the most.

Therefore, Swindon already have a business model allowing them to pay a rider like Nick Morris £100 a point. If Lakeside want to secure the services of Nick Morris they will have to pay 25% more in 2019 than they did in 2018 in order to compete with Swindon for his signature.

Couple this with the fact that one big league means there are potentially 19 clubs chasing the signatures of heatleaders and a reduction in the number of riders firstly due to the removal of doubling-up and secondly riders who can't commit to Friday, Saturday and Sunday racing in Britain dropping out.

Whether more variety would boost attendances remains to be seen. What we know for a fact, as we have seen it happen over the last decade, is that if you reduce the strength of the league fewer people attend.

You don't actually know what riders are paid and Swindon would have to scale down, so Mr Morris and others might find their options somewhat reduced and end up somewhere on even less, either that or start shelf stacking. Times are hard and the point of any changes should be to help clubs continue to survive. Having said that, it seems that a small number of Premiership clubs are resisting the idea, so the same old will continue and the strugglers will continue to fall by the wayside as yawning spectators find other amusements.

[MattK]

10 minutes ago, foamfence said:

You don't actually know what riders are paid and Swindon would have to scale down, so Mr Morris and others might find their options somewhat reduced and end up somewhere on even less, either that or start shelf stacking. Times are hard and the point of any changes should be to help clubs continue to survive. Having said that, it seems that a small number of Premiership clubs are resisting the idea, so the same old will continue and the strugglers will continue to fall by the wayside as yawning spectators find other amusements.

Why would Swindon have to scale down? They have a business model predicated on Premiership costs?

Why would Morris find his options reduced? One big league would mean more clubs and fewer riders.

I agree times are hard, but I don't see how this would help clubs survive. It would increase costs as I have described and history has shown reducing the quality of the league reduces attendances.

If as you say it is a small number of Premiership clubs resisting the idea, then they will surely be voted down at the AGM as it is one club one vote?

[foamfence]

8 minutes ago, MattK said:

Why would Swindon have to scale down? They have a business model predicated on Premiership costs?

Why would Morris find his options reduced? One big league would mean more clubs and fewer riders.

I agree times are hard, but I don't see how this would help clubs survive. It would increase costs as I have described and history has shown reducing the quality of the league reduces attendances.

If as you say it is a small number of Premiership clubs resisting the idea, then they will surely be voted down at the AGM as it is one club one vote?

If the level was at Championship averages then Swindon would need to adjust their line-up, if clubs couldn't afford what Swindon had previously paid Morris, they would make him a lower offer, other former Premiership clubs  would also be looking to shed riders and that might reduce his options as well. You assume that AGM voting would be as you or I would vote or even be logical, history tells us otherwise. Anyway, speculation seems rather pointless just now.

[Fromafar]

2 hours ago, MattK said:

Why would Championship teams agree to one big league, as it would result in an increase in their costs with no increase in revenues?

 

 

2 hours ago, MattK said:

Why would Championship teams agree to one big league, as it would result in an increase in their costs with no increase in revenues?

Think the Premiership would have to drop to Championship Level.Championship should tell Premiership to go their own way.Everybody knows that most Champoinship Teams are struggling financially .Its obvious that if they can persuade 1 Team to move up they think everything will be hunky dory as usual.Raffle p#ss up and Brewery spring to mind.

[MattK]

5 minutes ago, foamfence said:

If the level was at Championship averages then Swindon would need to adjust their line-up, if clubs couldn't afford what Swindon had previously paid Morris, they would make him a lower offer, other former Premiership clubs  would also be looking to shed riders and that might reduce his options as well. You assume that AGM voting would be as you or I would vote or even be logical, history tells us otherwise. Anyway, speculation seems rather pointless just now.

Swindon would have to adjust the strength of their team, but they wouldn't need to adjust what they pay, as they have a business model in place which allows them to pay Premiership wages. The fact that you've lowered the standard of the league doesn't reduce a club's spending power. 

It wouldn't reduce a rider's option. There are around 40 riders currently doubling-up. In one big league this would mean 20 spaces which need to be filled. On top of that you have riders opting out as they cannot commit to racing on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday due to Polish, GP, SEC, U21s and other commitments. One big league would make it a riders market.

[foamfence]

1 minute ago, MattK said:

Swindon would have to adjust the strength of their team, but they wouldn't need to adjust what they pay, as they have a business model in place which allows them to pay Premiership wages. The fact that you've lowered the standard of the league doesn't reduce a club's spending power. 

It wouldn't reduce a rider's option. There are around 40 riders currently doubling-up. In one big league this would mean 20 spaces which need to be filled. On top of that you have riders opting out as they cannot commit to racing on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday due to Polish, GP, SEC, U21s and other commitments. One big league would make it a riders market.

The suggestion has been six man teams and the probability of a draft return or something similar. As I said, it's now in some doubt but it was considered to be a possibility. With regard to Swindon (your choice not mine), we assume that they will be running and you assume that they're just going to voluntarily up riders earnings. Your cup doesn't have to be half empty you know.

[Fromafar]

51 minutes ago, foamfence said:

You don't actually know what riders are paid and Swindon would have to scale down, so Mr Morris and others might find their options somewhat reduced and end up somewhere on even less, either that or start shelf stacking. Times are hard and the point of any changes should be to help clubs continue to survive. Having said that, it seems that a small number of Premiership clubs are resisting the idea, so the same old will continue and the strugglers will continue to fall by the wayside as yawning spectators find other amusements.

Exactly ,can't see fans flocking to see the same Premiership as last season.Most fans are a bit fed up with the lack  of Leadership from BSPA ,they can't even abide by their own rules .Radical rethink needed.

[MattK]

1 minute ago, foamfence said:

The suggestion has been six man teams and the probability of a draft return or something similar. As I said, it's now in some doubt but it was considered to be a possibility. With regard to Swindon (your choice not mine), we assume that they will be running and you assume that they're just going to voluntarily up riders earnings. Your cup doesn't have to be half empty you know.

I agree six man teams are a possible solution, but I am sure that isn't without it's problems. If this is an option I would like to see some meetings run with six man teams in order to try and iron out the problems.

I don't think Swindon will up rider's earnings, simply pay the same in 2019 as 2018. It appears as if clubs built a model which revolves around making the play-offs or even the finals in order to break even. You can say that they should cut their cloth accordingly, but there is nothing to stop them doing this today and it seem clear that tracking a competitive team is more important and balancing the books.

[The Third Man]

10 minutes ago, MattK said:

Swindon would have to adjust the strength of their team, but they wouldn't need to adjust what they pay, as they have a business model in place which allows them to pay Premiership wages. The fact that you've lowered the standard of the league doesn't reduce a club's spending power. 

It wouldn't reduce a rider's option. There are around 40 riders currently doubling-up. In one big league this would mean 20 spaces which need to be filled. On top of that you have riders opting out as they cannot commit to racing on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday due to Polish, GP, SEC, U21s and other commitments. One big league would make it a riders market.

are they making money at the moment? I doubt it

so why spend more than they have to

the one thing speedway needs is for all the promoters to agree the set up for next season and stick to it, if riders don't like it they can retire or try and get a team place on the continent

as I have said the simplest thing is the promoters to work together for the benefit of the whole, that will then benefit themselves, but as we all know that is also the hardest thing for them all to do, but don't worry because I am sure a four team PL will work   

[MattK]

13 minutes ago, The Third Man said:

are they making money at the moment? I doubt it

so why spend more than they have to

the one thing speedway needs is for all the promoters to agree the set up for next season and stick to it, if riders don't like it they can retire or try and get a team place on the continent

as I have said the simplest thing is the promoters to work together for the benefit of the whole, that will then benefit themselves, but as we all know that is also the hardest thing for them all to do, but don't worry because I am sure a four team PL will work   

Do clubs pay more than they have to today? I don't believe they do. Swindon pays Nick Morris what they do because they presumably thing he is the best rider available at that average and price. If there was a better rider available for less money, then surely Swindon would sign them?

The idea of promoters sticking together is fine, but it completely ignores the fact that speedway is a competitive sport and clubs want to win. Clearly, making a loss is an acceptable price for putting together a competitive team because if it wasn't clubs wouldn't do it.

[Fromafar]

49 minutes ago, MattK said:

Do clubs pay more than they have to today? I don't believe they do. Swindon pays Nick Morris what they do because they presumably thing he is the best rider available at that average and price. If there was a better rider available for less money, then surely Swindon would sign them?

The idea of promoters sticking together is fine, but it completely ignores the fact that speedway is a competitive sport and clubs want to win. Clearly, making a loss is an acceptable price for putting together a competitive team because if it wasn't clubs wouldn't do it.

Why are so many in Financial difficulty then.

[ch958]

5 hours ago, MattK said:

Do clubs pay more than they have to today? I don't believe they do. Swindon pays Nick Morris what they do because they presumably thing he is the best rider available at that average and price. If there was a better rider available for less money, then surely Swindon would sign them?

The idea of promoters sticking together is fine, but it completely ignores the fact that speedway is a competitive sport and clubs want to win. Clearly, making a loss is an acceptable price for putting together a competitive team because if it wasn't clubs wouldn't do it.

you always argue persuasively and i respect what you say but we simply can't go on like this and yet you seem to suggest thats exactly whats going to happen.What then can be done differently?

[topsoil]

10 hours ago, Fromafar said:

Squad system would be mine .

And where would the extra riders come from? There aren't enough to solve the doubling up problem at the moment, let alone provide a squad for each club.