AGM November 2018

[g13webb]

17 hours ago, ch958 said:

the comparisons with football are completely bogus. For one thing, a home team mullering the away team every week is fine in football but v boring in speedway.

People keep going on about the product being lower standard but the product is racing not names. As long as the racing is competitive then the product is fine.

In the good times of the 60s and 70s for every Briggs, Mauger, etc there were 2 or 3 journeyman riders making up the numbers. How do you think they achieved regular 11 plus averages?

If Briggs, Mauger, Moore, Fundin, etc met each other once a week their averages would struggle past 9. Mathematical fact

 

Of cause  the format has made it harder to attain those high averages, but it would be wrong to ridicule those top riders you mentioned, as I'm quietly confident they would have achieved those high figures regardless of what format was used.    Yes there were journeyman  back then  but they were usually reserves,  bit like they are today.   But back then the teams were far stronger with 3 proper heat leaders.   and teams more evenly matched.      The biggest difference back then was that each rider was seen as a team member and belonged to that team.  Now  riders race for various teams and have no allegiance to anybody....  consequently the fans don't have that connection with the rider anymore... 

I remember, often staying late at night drinking with the riders after the meetings, the place was packed with fans wanting this contact with the riders.   WE never won much but the place was usually heaving....   Couldn't wait for the next meeting...

[steve roberts]

22 minutes ago, g13webb said:

Of cause  the format has made it harder to attain those high averages, but it would be wrong to ridicule those top riders you mentioned, as I'm quietly confident they would have achieved those high figures regardless of what format was used.    Yes there were journeyman  back then  but they were usually reserves,  bit like they are today.   But back then the teams were far stronger with 3 proper heat leaders.   and teams more evenly matched.      The biggest difference back then was that each rider was seen as a team member and belonged to that team.  Now  riders race for various teams and have no allegiance to anybody....  consequently the fans don't have that connection with the rider anymore... 

I remember, often staying late at night drinking with the riders after the meetings, the place was packed with fans wanting this contact with the riders.   WE never won much but the place was usually heaving....   Couldn't wait for the next meeting...

...and, of course, not all 'Star' men achieved averages above 9 points (the cut off often highlighted in 'Speedway Star') riding at Number One as many who achieved such averages and above often rode further down the order so meeting the opposite Number One at least twice during the meeting as well as other established high scoring riders. Examples are numerous...Ashby, Lovaas, Simmons, T.Jansson, C.Morton, Collins, Lee, Boulger, Jessup, Autrey, Sanders, K.Moran, Preston, Gundersen etc etc (just off the top of my head). I guess that the biggest player in averages registering lower was the fixed-gate rule although, contrary to  popular belief, many 'star' riders often allowed their lesser compatiots to take the better gates as interviews in 'Backtrack' clarify putting it into some sort of perspective.

Edited November 14, 2018 by steve roberts

[Barrow Boy 2]

21 minutes ago, g13webb said:

Of cause  the format has made it harder to attain those high averages, but it would be wrong to ridicule those top riders you mentioned, as I'm quietly confident they would have achieved those high figures regardless of what format was used.    Yes there were journeyman  back then  but they were usually reserves,  bit like they are today.   But back then the teams were far stronger with 3 proper heat leaders.   and teams more evenly matched.      The biggest difference back then was that each rider was seen as a team member and belonged to that team.  Now  riders race for various teams and have no allegiance to anybody....  consequently the fans don't have that connection with the rider anymore... 

I remember, often staying late at night drinking with the riders after the meetings, the place was packed with fans wanting this contact with the riders.   WE never won much but the place was usually heaving....   Couldn't wait for the next meeting...

Another factor in achieving higher averages than today was that riders and or team managers were allowed to select their own riders starting positions. The better riders naturally selected what they thought were the best gates. Now of course every rider has to go off each of the gates without choice.

[steve roberts]

Just now, Barrow Boy 2 said:

Another factor in achieving higher averages than today was that riders and or team managers were allowed to select their own riders starting positions. The better riders naturally selected what they thought were the best gates. Now of course every rider has to go off each of the gates without choice.

I would agree to an extent but it wasn't always the case as interviews  with many riders from that period actually give credit to some of the 'star' riders giving up the best gate for the betterment of the team. Both Ivan Mauger and Ole Olsen, amongst many, have been credited with unselfish acts by team mates.

[wealdstone]

17 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I would agree to an extent but it wasn't always the case as interviews  with many riders from that period actually give credit to some of the 'star' riders giving up the best gate for the betterment of the team. Both Ivan Mauger and Ole Olsen, amongst many, have been credited with unselfish acts by team mates.

The late Tommy Price always said to others " take what gate you like as long as I am off gate 1"

[norbold]

30 minutes ago, wealdstone said:

The late Tommy Price always said to others " take what gate you like as long as I am off gate 1"

Jack Young was another who didn't particularly care which gate he went off as he couldn't gate anyway! He made most of his points from behind.

With regard to the ten point averages for the "Big Five", we also shouldn't forget that they went off a 20 yard handicap for three seasons.

[IainB]

14 hours ago, SPEEDY69 said:

 Standing out in the cold/wet is unpleasant, standing around watching a tractor or listening to 70s music is also not engaging.  There could be other things on the terraces to do e.g. video games, bike simulators, bouncy castles/bungees, party events hosting, free wifi, a big screen - none of these are messing about with the racing but just trying to modernise the experience.  If you then added characters for your team, with nicknames etc. as they do in other sports this could also add some atmosphere - this does need promoters to stop 'pass the rider' games and loyalty can be achieved if handled consistently.

One thing I always think could be a quick cheap (ish) gain would be to move the pits to somewhere where the punters can see what's going on, something like home team on the home straight away, team on the back straight (not at Wolves obvs!) Instead of them disappearing off the track after 60 seconds not to be seen again until after 5 minutes of tractor racing. A lot of clubs have their pit areas tucked away out of visibility of the paying punter and for kids especially how are they going to identify their hero? There'll be a lot of people probably reply to this, you can't do it because of X, you can't do this because of y... Just make it happen. I read in the SS and Dave(?) Hoggart was talking about the in between race experience and that the music needs to be brought up to date, pa systems improved etc. I don't go to Speedway to listen to music I go to watch racing and immerse myself in the racing experience this includes seeing what's going on in the pits, what the riders are doing, what the team managers are up to... It should all be part of the show!

Edited November 14, 2018 by iainb

[steve roberts]

8 minutes ago, iainb said:

One thing I always think could be a quick cheap (ish) gain would be to move the pits to somewhere where the punters can see what's going on, something like home team on the home straight away, team on the back straight (not at Wolves obvs!) Instead of them disappearing off the track after 60 seconds not to be seen again until after 5 minutes of tractor racing. A lot of clubs have their pit areas tucked away out of visibility of the paying punter and for kids especially how are they going to identify their hero? There'll be a lot of people probably reply to this, you can't do it because of X, you can't do this because of y... Just make it happen. I read in the SS and Dave(?) Hoggart was talking about the in between race experience and that the music needs to be brought up to date, pa systems improved etc. I don't go to Speedway to listen to music I go to watch racing and immerse myself in the racing experience this includes seeing what's going on in the pits, what the riders are doing, what the team managers are up to... It should all be part of the show!

I recall Peter Seaton (one-time Oxford and Peterborough rider) advocating that the pits should be on the centre green.

[OveFundinFan]

Pits on the centre green........ a rider on an out of control bike was killed at Ellesmere Port back in the early 80's (I think) when he hit the tractor/grader on the centre green. Now even tractor/graders are parked off track.

Also remember a riderless bike running across the centre green just missing the start girls perched on their seats at a GP/Euro type event in last couple years.

[IainB]

15 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

Pits on the centre green........ a rider on an out of control bike was killed at Ellesmere Port back in the early 80's (I think) when he hit the tractor/grader on the centre green. Now even tractor/graders are parked off track.

Also remember a riderless bike running across the centre green just missing the start girls perched on their seats at a GP/Euro type event in last couple years.

And your point?

[teaboy279]

27 minutes ago, iainb said:

And your point?

I think his point is putting the pits on the infield is as bright as putting a moto x track there. Both unsafe, and would surely also block viewing the far side of the circuit. The less solid objects inside a speedway track the better imo

[SPEEDY69]

The pits were visible at Odsal I seem to remember - needed binoculars if you were any distance away of course.  I expect the old H&S would create hurdles most couldn't be bothered to overcome.  They would need cover - it's ok for fans to get wet but not riders!  Much better to get views from the pits onto a big screen I think to help make it more interactive.

[marko]

13 hours ago, BLACKHEART said:

They don't take any notice period and that's why we're in this mess. 

Spot on, if your not in their bubble they do not want to know.

It says it all that you can come into the bubble, put a fair amount of money on the table and still you will not have a voice for a year or so.

The BSPA is like a family Christmas, they get together once a year, pretend everything is great and then spend the next 12 months bickering.

[ch958]

3 hours ago, g13webb said:

Of cause  the format has made it harder to attain those high averages, but it would be wrong to ridicule those top riders you mentioned, as I'm quietly confident they would have achieved those high figures regardless of what format was used.    Yes there were journeyman  back then  but they were usually reserves,  bit like they are today.   But back then the teams were far stronger with 3 proper heat leaders.   and teams more evenly matched.      The biggest difference back then was that each rider was seen as a team member and belonged to that team.  Now  riders race for various teams and have no allegiance to anybody....  consequently the fans don't have that connection with the rider anymore... 

I remember, often staying late at night drinking with the riders after the meetings, the place was packed with fans wanting this contact with the riders.   WE never won much but the place was usually heaving....   Couldn't wait for the next meeting...

I wouldn't ridicule any rider

[Spl77]

I doubt anything will change after the AGM. The government must have asked them to sort brexit! 

[Daniel Smith]

3 hours ago, g13webb said:

Of cause  the format has made it harder to attain those high averages, but it would be wrong to ridicule those top riders you mentioned, as I'm quietly confident they would have achieved those high figures regardless of what format was used.    Yes there were journeyman  back then  but they were usually reserves,  bit like they are today.   But back then the teams were far stronger with 3 proper heat leaders.   and teams more evenly matched.      The biggest difference back then was that each rider was seen as a team member and belonged to that team.  Now  riders race for various teams and have no allegiance to anybody....  consequently the fans don't have that connection with the rider anymore... 

I remember, often staying late at night drinking with the riders after the meetings, the place was packed with fans wanting this contact with the riders.   WE never won much but the place was usually heaving....   Couldn't wait for the next meeting...

Nobody is ridiculing rider's, just stating that the rider's wouldn't be anywhere near the 10+ averages of today's format. That is absolutely correct, they wouldn't. 

Also, I believe that in today's Speedway the 2nd string / reserves are of much better standard than years gone by too.

The only significant difference of now and years gone by has been quality of racing. Rider's are saying it, promoters are saying it, fans are saying it, racing and tracks in the UK are abysmal. Tracks haven't evolved with the changes in machinery. Today's bikes are rev hungry machines but don't actually deliver faster race times.

David Howe explained in his Speedway Star piece that today's engine's are impossible unless you're ringing the throttle. Get off the throttle today to change your racing line in the middle of the bend, and these machines will try to put you in hospital. 

What I'd love to see happen is some testing. Say at Belle Vue, 1 trustworthy rider, 4 bikes. One with his current engine in, 4 heats on his own, calculate the race times and speed.

Then, re-dress the track, in the next bike, run the last of the high powered uprights at full tilt, 4 heats as before

3rd and 4th bikes to run the updated Gerhard and Godden engine's.

Then repeat the above with the track covered in deep dirt.

Then, with the same rider, repeat the whole process at a tight technical track. Work out all the data and from that World Speedway would have a better idea of where it needs to be.

After reading the Speedway Star, while everything seems all rosy in the Polish garden it's quite clear they to have financial worries. 

So, if we can get the machine v track combination right, make the engines run longer etc the sport can then start to look at saving money from top to bottom. Only then, maybe the sport can then get that feel good factor of years gone by, hopefully we'll see and hear clubs turning a profit.

What many have said is correct, whatever comes out of this AGM is irrelevant as it won't keep everyone happy all of the time. First and formost for me, there needs to be a program in place to test all possibilities of track and machine, in attendance, the chairmen of FIM, BSI and international leagues to run these tests.

To make Speedway the sport it should be track v machine is vital and only then the thrill factor of 4 blokes, 4 laps, handlebar bashing may be a more regular occurrence than just the standard gate and go.

[Fromafar]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Nobody is ridiculing rider's, just stating that the rider's wouldn't be anywhere near the 10+ averages of today's format. That is absolutely correct, they wouldn't. 

Also, I believe that in today's Speedway the 2nd string / reserves are of much better standard than years gone by too.

The only significant difference of now and years gone by has been quality of racing. Rider's are saying it, promoters are saying it, fans are saying it, racing and tracks in the UK are abysmal. Tracks haven't evolved with the changes in machinery. Today's bikes are rev hungry machines but don't actually deliver faster race times.

David Howe explained in his Speedway Star piece that today's engine's are impossible unless you're ringing the throttle. Get off the throttle today to change your racing line in the middle of the bend, and these machines will try to put you in hospital. 

What I'd love to see happen is some testing. Say at Belle Vue, 1 trustworthy rider, 4 bikes. One with his current engine in, 4 heats on his own, calculate the race times and speed.

Then, re-dress the track, in the next bike, run the last of the high powered uprights at full tilt, 4 heats as before

3rd and 4th bikes to run the updated Gerhard and Godden engine's.

Then repeat the above with the track covered in deep dirt.

Then, with the same rider, repeat the whole process at a tight technical track. Work out all the data and from that World Speedway would have a better idea of where it needs to be.

After reading the Speedway Star, while everything seems all rosy in the Polish garden it's quite clear they to have financial worries. 

So, if we can get the machine v track combination right, make the engines run longer etc the sport can then start to look at saving money from top to bottom. Only then, maybe the sport can then get that feel good factor of years gone by, hopefully we'll see and hear clubs turning a profit.

What many have said is correct, whatever comes out of this AGM is irrelevant as it won't keep everyone happy all of the time. First and formost for me, there needs to be a program in place to test all possibilities of track and machine, in attendance, the chairmen of FIM, BSI and international leagues to run these tests.

To make Speedway the sport it should be track v machine is vital and only then the thrill factor of 4 blokes, 4 laps, handlebar bashing may be a more regular occurrence than just the standard gate and go.

agree, addressing tracks and Machinery would be a good start.

[steve roberts]

5 hours ago, SPEEDY69 said:

The pits were visible at Odsal I seem to remember - needed binoculars if you were any distance away of course.  I expect the old H&S would create hurdles most couldn't be bothered to overcome.  They would need cover - it's ok for fans to get wet but not riders!  Much better to get views from the pits onto a big screen I think to help make it more interactive.

Whity City moved the pits from under the terraces via a  tunnel onto a paved area on the third and fourth bends. I recall that Oxford tried a similar thing during their National League Era (1970's) before reverting back to behind the terracing.

[wealdstone]

My   fear is that they will make a bigger balls of it than they have ever previously achieved

[OveFundinFan]

6 hours ago, iainb said:

And your point?

It was in response to the post directly before mine by SteveRoberts who was quoting a guy who advocated having pits on the centre green.