AGM November 2018

[topsoil]

8 hours ago, Fromafar said:

Reading between the lines in this weeks SS if the Premiership Promotions can get Team  to move up its sod the rest,but I get the impression that there's a few  Championship Teams in a bit of trouble financially.Looks like a bit of a stalemate  between leagues . No easy answer . A poll between fans would be Interesring.Personaly 1 league.

This would be financial suicide for a lot of Championship clubs, many of whom are struggling to afford running at Championship levels, never mind increasing costs to compete with the Premiership clubs. But as long as it pleases a few "elite" clubs, who cares?

[waytogo28]

How can One Big League result in a much higher outlay than the Championship currently costs to run? One "top " star per team ( if that is possible with the number of "top" stars about! ) I can only see One Big league as about the same as being at Championship level. If you take out  Doyle, Lambert, Fricke, Cook and don't use them unless they ride for a reasonable amount then you have no other World Class riders ( Kurtz & J Holder are of course Up & Coming. Nicholls and Harris are no longer where they were ( except in their odd best moments ). UK speedway for at least five years - while it TRIES to rebuild and attract new fans - does not need world class riders. All riders are heroes for racing but are worth only what the sport can afford in terms of paying customers. If sponsors will meet the additional financial needs of "top" riders, that is market factors coming in to play. If we go for more of the same ( of the last ten years ) further decline in terms of average crowds is the only outcome.

[MattK]

11 hours ago, ch958 said:

you always argue persuasively and i respect what you say but we simply can't go on like this and yet you seem to suggest thats exactly whats going to happen.What then can be done differently?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everything is rosy, I just don't believe that one big league is the solution. It will be seen as a major weakening for Premiership teams, which is the approach tried for the last decade (with inevitable consequences) and I believe will result in a cost increase for Championship teams. Frankly, I don't think tinkering with the league structure will do anything to attract fans.

For me, the problem is the way in which the sport is promoted. Clubs seem to rely on a combination of BT Sport, local media, social media and word of mouth. The problem with the first three is that you are largely preaching to the converted. The only people who will watch speedway on BT Sport, read about it in the local news and follow speedway related social media are people who already have a passing interest in the sport. The problem with word of mouth is that I don't believe it is persuasive enough to get people to part with £17 to "try out" speedway.

I think clubs need to try a lot harder to get speedway in front of people so they can experience it first hand. The approach I would take is to appoint speedway ambassadors who work at major local employers or who have some other access to large numbers of potential customers. Each ambassador has twenty free tickets per meeting to offer to people who don't regularly attend speedway. The tickets would include entry, a pre-meeting pit walk, the chance to watch a couple of heats from the centre green and a discount voucher for the next meeting.

If 10 ambassadors bring 20 newbies each meeting and just half return for the discounted meeting (say £9 entry) and 10% return longer term this would create 300 new fans per season and generate almost £50k in additional revenue. The cost to the clubs is minimal as the people being offered free tickets wouldn't be attending without them.

[foamfence]

7 minutes ago, MattK said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everything is rosy, I just don't believe that one big league is the solution. It will be seen as a major weakening for Premiership teams, which is the approach tried for the last decade (with inevitable consequences) and I believe will result in a cost increase for Championship teams. Frankly, I don't think tinkering with the league structure will do anything to attract fans.

For me, the problem is the way in which the sport is promoted. Clubs seem to rely on a combination of BT Sport, local media, social media and word of mouth. The problem with the first three is that you are largely preaching to the converted. The only people who will watch speedway on BT Sport, read about it in the local news and follow speedway related social media are people who already have a passing interest in the sport. The problem with word of mouth is that I don't believe it is persuasive enough to get people to part with £17 to "try out" speedway.

I think clubs need to try a lot harder to get speedway in front of people so they can experience it first hand. The approach I would take is to appoint speedway ambassadors who work at major local employers or who have some other access to large numbers of potential customers. Each ambassador has twenty free tickets per meeting to offer to people who don't regularly attend speedway. The tickets would include entry, a pre-meeting pit walk, the chance to watch a couple of heats from the centre green and a discount voucher for the next meeting.

If 10 ambassadors bring 20 newbies each meeting and just half return for the discounted meeting (say £9 entry) and 10% return longer term this would create 300 new fans per season and generate almost £50k in additional revenue. The cost to the clubs is minimal as the people being offered free tickets wouldn't be attending without them.

At Bradford they would visit a different school every week and on race day they would transport the kids to the track, show them around the pits, explain everything and then after the first race a kid turned to me and said "is that it"? They then chose to run about the place making a total nuisance of themselves and few if any ever came back, in fact Bradford had the best team in the country, a good track and piles of silver wear but by the time it closed the place was embarrassingly empty. So imagine your idea should work, after a handful of meetings the new spectator has seen all the teams in the league and Chris Harris seemed to ride for most of them, he's been covered in dust to the extent that he couldn't see across the track and he's seen two overtakes and 88 processions. I had been a spectator from the 1950s, later a sponsor and sometimes mechanic, I introduced lots of my friends to the sport, none of them go now and I only know one who watches it on TV (and he travelled the world to big meetings, such was his initial enthusiasm). The product is now the problem, tracks that are inaccessible to anyone who relies on public transport, tracks badly prepared, bikes that are unnecessarily dangerous, same riders week after week, no matter which team it's supposed to be and a bad lack of continuity. Having said all that, I suppose anything is worth a try but I haven't seen anything new in the offing that hasn't already failed. 

[MattK]

12 minutes ago, foamfence said:

At Bradford they would visit a different school every week and on race day they would transport the kids to the track, show them around the pits, explain everything and then after the first race a kid turned to me and said "is that it"? They then chose to run about the place making a total nuisance of themselves and few if any ever came back, in fact Bradford had the best team in the country, a good track and piles of silver wear but by the time it closed the place was embarrassingly empty. So imagine your idea should work, after a handful of meetings the new spectator has seen all the teams in the league and Chris Harris seemed to ride for most of them, he's been covered in dust to the extent that he couldn't see across the track and he's seen two overtakes and 88 processions. I had been a spectator from the 1950s, later a sponsor and sometimes mechanic, I introduced lots of my friends to the sport, none of them go now and I only know one who watches it on TV (and he travelled the world to big meetings, such was his initial enthusiasm). The product is now the problem, tracks that are inaccessible to anyone who relies on public transport, tracks badly prepared, bikes that are unnecessarily dangerous, same riders week after week, no matter which team it's supposed to be and a bad lack of continuity. Having said all that, I suppose anything is worth a try but I haven't seen anything new in the offing that hasn't already failed. 

I agree about promoting speedway to kids. It is a waste of time. Speedway has nothing to offer youngsters. The target market is over 40 and that's who clubs should be trying to attract.

As for the product being the problem, I don't agree. Could it be better, of course. However when I watch meetings from the 70s and 80s there is no more passing or closer racing than you see today. Yes there are the occasional shocker meetings (Swindon's TV meeting against Leicester) but these are the exception rather than the rule.

[foamfence]

11 minutes ago, MattK said:

I agree about promoting speedway to kids. It is a waste of time. Speedway has nothing to offer youngsters. The target market is over 40 and that's who clubs should be trying to attract.

As for the product being the problem, I don't agree. Could it be better, of course. However when I watch meetings from the 70s and 80s there is no more passing or closer racing than you see today. Yes there are the occasional shocker meetings (Swindon's TV meeting against Leicester) but these are the exception rather than the rule.

I never mentioned things being better, what I was getting at was that people have got wise to what a pile of **** it really is. As for the target being over 40s, well everything I seem to read suggests that youth is the target. Things might not have been better in the old days but if you ask the majority of oldies down at the track, they say they preferred it back then but still go through habit and to catch up with friends and of course the off chance of a good race.

[ch958]

i agree with the lack of promotion and advertising but when they get to the stadium the product should at least be credible and not select teams. One division for me but it doesn't seem there's the will. Oh well, more nails in the coffin I'm sad to say

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, MattK said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everything is rosy, I just don't believe that one big league is the solution. It will be seen as a major weakening for Premiership teams, which is the approach tried for the last decade (with inevitable consequences) and I believe will result in a cost increase for Championship teams. Frankly, I don't think tinkering with the league structure will do anything to attract fans.

For me, the problem is the way in which the sport is promoted. Clubs seem to rely on a combination of BT Sport, local media, social media and word of mouth. The problem with the first three is that you are largely preaching to the converted. The only people who will watch speedway on BT Sport, read about it in the local news and follow speedway related social media are people who already have a passing interest in the sport. The problem with word of mouth is that I don't believe it is persuasive enough to get people to part with £17 to "try out" speedway.

I think clubs need to try a lot harder to get speedway in front of people so they can experience it first hand. The approach I would take is to appoint speedway ambassadors who work at major local employers or who have some other access to large numbers of potential customers. Each ambassador has twenty free tickets per meeting to offer to people who don't regularly attend speedway. The tickets would include entry, a pre-meeting pit walk, the chance to watch a couple of heats from the centre green and a discount voucher for the next meeting.

If 10 ambassadors bring 20 newbies each meeting and just half return for the discounted meeting (say £9 entry) and 10% return longer term this would create 300 new fans per season and generate almost £50k in additional revenue. The cost to the clubs is minimal as the people being offered free tickets wouldn't be attending without them.

Suggested something similar to a Promoter about 20 years ago...

He spent the next two minutes after my suggestion working out how much it was going to cost him in 'lost revenue' by giving away free and discounted entry over several weeks...

That would be 'lost revenue' that wasn't actually there in the first place because the people being targeted were those that were never attending....!!!

He also was concerned that these tickets could end up being received by fans who actually did attend and this would hit income...

I tactfully tried to explain that given the fact that as more than 99.9% of the 2.5 million people living less than 45 mins away don't attend, it was probably 'not too likely' many actual fans would gain from it but obviously there may be an odd one..

Bottom line is that the sport in a team guise (in the UK), is a busted flush...

And has now gone too far to ever get credibility to be regarded as 'proper' by national mainstream media and treated seriously by them.

And without that coverage crowds can never improve...

[Mark]

Its good to see the stars of the sport at league level but I'd not be worried if they didn't ride to keep costs managable.     I want to watch a tight match with good close exciting riding.  Who is under the helmet makes no diference to me at league level.      The second tier racing is often better than Premier.

[The Third Man]

All I can see if there is a money takes in the PL league is more teams wanting to ride in the CL, which is better for that league if it brings more teams into it.

lets see how long the PL lasts in that situation, if they do it for next season we will see how many teams are left to apply to join the CL in 2020 

[Daniel Smith]

I think dropping averages in the Premiership will allow for better control of wages. Every rider can come in on a fixed wage from 1-7. 

The most points that can possible be paid home and away is 105 (75+15 bonus points).

Obviously that won't be reached by any team but you have to work with the absolute possibility.

£250 per point = £26,250

£15 admission for over 21

£10 admission for 16-20

Free Under 16

1750 over 21's will break even.

Working on those values, along with sponsorships other overheads should be able to be covered. 

Also, tac subs when 8 behind

All rider's must complete a minimum of 2 rides.

Maximum number of rides is 6

Every team must have a minimum of 3 British rider's, 1 of which must be under 21.

The Championship to be average capped to 45 and wages capped to £100 per point, 4 rider's minimum must be British with 2 under 21.

[topaz325]

42 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

I think dropping averages in the Premiership will allow for better control of wages. Every rider can come in on a fixed wage from 1-7. 

The most points that can possible be paid home and away is 105 (75+15 bonus points).

Obviously that won't be reached by any team but you have to work with the absolute possibility.

£250 per point = £26,250

£15 admission for over 21

£10 admission for 16-20

Free Under 16

1750 over 21's will break even.

Working on those values, along with sponsorships other overheads should be able to be covered. 

Also, tac subs when 8 behind

All rider's must complete a minimum of 2 rides.

Maximum number of rides is 6

Every team must have a minimum of 3 British rider's, 1 of which must be under 21.

The Championship to be average capped to 45 and wages capped to £100 per point, 4 rider's minimum must be British with 2 under 21.

 

[Buttons]

11 minutes ago, topaz325 said:

 

Even if they did cap the wages, there would  always be some promoter getting their sponsor to top it up, just wouldn't work unfortunately.

[Mark]

57 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

I think dropping averages in the Premiership will allow for better control of wages. Every rider can come in on a fixed wage from 1-7. 

The most points that can possible be paid home and away is 105 (75+15 bonus points).

Obviously that won't be reached by any team but you have to work with the absolute possibility.

£250 per point = £26,250

£15 admission for over 21

£10 admission for 16-20

Free Under 16

1750 over 21's will break even.

Working on those values, along with sponsorships other overheads should be able to be covered. 

Also, tac subs when 8 behind

All rider's must complete a minimum of 2 rides.

Maximum number of rides is 6

Every team must have a minimum of 3 British rider's, 1 of which must be under 21.

The Championship to be average capped to 45 and wages capped to £100 per point, 4 rider's minimum must be British with 2 under 21.

doubt its that easy.   you are fogetting all the other costs associated with running a meeting.      lights, track staff, ambulance, insurance, bar staff.     My list is far from complete.

[Daniel Smith]

9 minutes ago, Mark said:

doubt its that easy.   you are fogetting all the other costs associated with running a meeting.      lights, track staff, ambulance, insurance, bar staff.     My list is far from complete.

I know it's far more complicated but I'd worked the values at worst possible. There will never be a team to average 75 point. Probably never average over 50. So to include bonus points, if you say 55 point average you'll only need 917 full paying adults. 

So, with no averages teams can be more strength in depth, less admission costs and all bills covered confidently. 

One of the most important things should be to introduce a wage cap and the removal of the chairman and vice-chairman. 

[MattK]

3 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

I know it's far more complicated but I'd worked the values at worst possible. There will never be a team to average 75 point. Probably never average over 50. So to include bonus points, if you say 55 point average you'll only need 917 full paying adults. 

So, with no averages teams can be more strength in depth, less admission costs and all bills covered confidently. 

One of the most important things should be to introduce a wage cap and the removal of the chairman and vice-chairman. 

On average teams will score 90 points, 45 at home and 45 away (not including bonus points). Remember, you have to pay the points money for both meetings out of one home meeting's income. That means 1,500 full paying adults, just to pay the wages.

[ch958]

1500? Try basing a budget on a third of that, then go forward. When and if crowds pick up, pay picks up. Hoping 1500 turn up is suicide. At the Div 2 tracks in the north a 20 pc crowd increase is probably only another 100 or so people. Its time to be realistic and go into survival mode first, then try and build.

[Tsunami]

9 hours ago, mikebv said:

Suggested something similar to a Promoter about 20 years ago...

He spent the next two minutes after my suggestion working out how much it was going to cost him in 'lost revenue' by giving away free and discounted entry over several weeks...

That would be 'lost revenue' that wasn't actually there in the first place because the people being targeted were those that were never attending....!!!

He also was concerned that these tickets could end up being received by fans who actually did attend and this would hit income...

I tactfully tried to explain that given the fact that as more than 99.9% of the 2.5 million people living less than 45 mins away don't attend, it was probably 'not too likely' many actual fans would gain from it but obviously there may be an odd one..

Bottom line is that the sport in a team guise (in the UK), is a busted flush...

And has now gone too far to ever get credibility to be regarded as 'proper' by national mainstream media and treated seriously by them.

And without that coverage crowds can never improve...

To not believe what you were told, is you showing your lack of knowledge. I attend every show/event that Newcastle puts on around our area, and the 'free' tickets used to regularly turn up at the gate being used by a regular fan. When we talk to a member of the public, and there is a hint of a friend/relative that goes to speedway, the 'free' tickets stay in my pocket and they are not on offer. Even more so if there is a family ticket for 4 people being used for that promotion.

Your third line is pure theory, not fact..

[IainB]

On 10/21/2018 at 9:45 AM, MattK said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everything is rosy, I just don't believe that one big league is the solution. It will be seen as a major weakening for Premiership teams, which is the approach tried for the last decade (with inevitable consequences) and I believe will result in a cost increase for Championship teams. Frankly, I don't think tinkering with the league structure will do anything to attract fans.

If 10 ambassadors bring 20 newbies each meeting and just half return for the discounted meeting (say £9 entry) and 10% return longer term this would create 300 new fans per season and generate almost £50k in additional revenue. The cost to the clubs is minimal as the people being offered free tickets wouldn't be attending without them.

Can anybody remember the reasons why there was "one big league" tried before 20 or so years ago? Hasn't it already been tried and failed? Why would you do the same again expecting a different result.

I have often taken noobs i work with along to Speedway as they're curious as to the thing I'm into... And I've always been lucky! You're always running the chance of attending a disaster meeting and that's the trouble with Speedway, you go to most other sports and you know exactly what you're going to get at Speedway it can be anything to lack of medical cover to floodlight failure and all of the numerous disasters waiting to happen in between that makes attending akin to a game of Russian roulette

On 10/21/2018 at 10:37 AM, MattK said:

I agree about promoting speedway to kids. It is a waste of time. Speedway has nothing to offer youngsters. The target market is over 40 and that's who clubs should be trying to attract.

It is the way it's done at the moment, they're just not interested, you don't see many kids at speedway actually watching the racing, they're there because the parents want to go and can't/don't sort babysitting out, they're often just left to cause a nuisance to all the other full price paying punters. BUT today more than ever there is a chance to get kids engaged with the use of technology, all bikes should be fitted with transponders and linked to some kind of interactive app that the kids can have on their phones that they can play with other kids at the same event, with colourful cartoon like characatures of the riders with collectables such as a selfie with particular riders etc. etc. Trouble is it's probably far too late for the sport to fund such a thing these days

Edited October 22, 2018 by iainb

[marko]

It doesn't matter how many teams are in each league, if the stadiums are messy and unclean, the racing and atmosphere poor, then no one will want to come.

The clubs in this country can't even get the basics right, (Belle Vue probably the exception, nice stadium, great track)