Wee Eck Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Spl77 said: That may be true. However if they can still ride anywhere they wish and are self employed then surely they have no monetary valve to the business? 1 hour ago, A ORLOV said: Correct Incorrect. As long as you can obtain a loan fee for a rider on your retained list, they must have a value. Indeed, the true value of any rider could be calculated using averages and average working lives, adjusted for a drop out rate for those that choose not to ride in UK anymore. For example, a rider heading towards retirement, but likely to race in UK would be worth 1 times or perhaps 2 times their loan fee. A similar rider in his early 30s might be worth 4 or 5 times. The lure of the Zloty or Swedish Crown hasn't gone on long enough for any British riders to turn their backs on UK permanently so who's to say that, even though Robert Lambert is likely to commit less to UK, and concentrate of Poland and Sweden, that he wouldn't look to come "home" in years to come? Indeed, who's to say that Tai will never race in UK again? So, if the gamble is that they'll return, then whoever is holding their registration will either get or save a loan fee. Which then means they too have a value. There are plenty of riders who are very unlikely to come back to UK, Hancock, Hampel, Janowski, Pedersen etc, so they are the nil value ones, but Holder (C), AJ, Lindback, Lindgren (F), Zagar etc may well return which will earn - or save - someone something. My view is that it's a horrible system, perpetuated by Championship League who need to sell riders to make the books balance, but it's not illegal, as no one is forced to ride anywhere they don't want to, and it does create an asset class for teams holding registrations. Edited October 16, 2018 by Wee Eck Hamill typed in error - meant Hampel! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Wee Eck said: Incorrect. As long as you can obtain a loan fee for a rider on your retained list, they must have a value. Indeed, the true value of any rider could be calculated using averages and average working lives, adjusted for a drop out rate for those that choose not to ride in UK anymore. For example, a rider heading towards retirement, but likely to race in UK would be worth 1 times or perhaps 2 times their loan fee. A similar rider in his early 30s might be worth 4 or 5 times. The lure of the Zloty or Swedish Crown hasn't gone on long enough for any British riders to turn their backs on UK permanently so who's to say that, even though Robert Lambert is likely to commit less to UK, and concentrate of Poland and Sweden, that he wouldn't look to come "home" in years to come? Indeed, who's to say that Tai will never race in UK again? So, if the gamble is that they'll return, then whoever is holding their registration will either get or save a loan fee. Which then means they too have a value. There are plenty of riders who are very unlikely to come back to UK, Hancock, Hampel, Janowski, Pedersen etc, so they are the nil value ones, but Holder (C), AJ, Lindback, Lindgren (F), Zagar etc may well return which will earn - or save - someone something. My view is that it's a horrible system, perpetuated by Championship League who need to sell riders to make the books balance, but it's not illegal, as no one is forced to ride anywhere they don't want to, and it does create an asset class for teams holding registrations. Only if the rider wants to ride in the UK, but if they decide to only ride abroad, if they become injured and cannot ride, if they are banned from riding in the UK, if the rider decides to have a break from racing I am correct. Apart from that loan fees do not seem to be very high for most riders so they are not worth considering and it is unlikely that any bank would class them as an asset . No business man would agree to pay a loan fee for a rider for a season without a claw back clause in the event of the rider either getting injured and not able to ride, the rider deciding after a few weeks that he does not want to ride for that club. Edited October 16, 2018 by A ORLOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldRacer Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 23 hours ago, robins les said: I used to think that the asset system was illegal under the Bosman ruling but I now believe that this is incorrect. The clubs only own the league registration not the rider. The rider is free to ride for any club that he wants. He can refuse to ride for the club that owns the asset, as Kyle Howarth has done in the past & probably many other riders have also done so in the past. The difference between this & football was that the football player was not free to do this. Speedway riders are classed as self employed, unlike footballers who are employees of the club. The Bosman ruling was about clubs holding the league registration for players that are out of contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Eck Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, A ORLOV said: Only if the rider wants to ride in the UK, but if they decide to only ride abroad, if they become injured and cannot ride, if they are banned from riding in the UK, if the rider decides to have a break from racing I am correct. Apart from that loan fees do not seem to be very high for most riders so they are not worth considering and it is unlikely that any bank would class them as an asset . No business man would agree to pay a loan fee for a rider for a season without a claw back clause in the event of the rider either getting injured and not able to ride, the rider deciding after a few weeks that he does not want to ride for that club. Your first paragraph is exactly what I said about the factors that need to be taken into account in deciding whether or not having a rider on your retained list constituted a money making - or money saving - asset for accounts or value purposes. I’m not sure of the relevance of your point about banks - no one has suggested using retained riders as collateral, but I agree a lender would need some persuasion to lend on a rider. But the same would be true of an ageing air fence, tractor etc. Your second point is moot - the rules on loan fees are as dictated by BSPA and agreed to by BSPA members. A track using a rider on another team’s retained list pays the fee as set by the rules that all teams have agreed to. “Business men” or women or even non business people can’t cherry pick the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 hours ago, Skidder1 said: How much do you think Terry Russell would expect to get if/when he sells Swindon? Not a lot - when there are issues with regards to having a stadium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Skidder1 said: How much do you think Terry Russell would expect to get if/when he sells Swindon? Zilch. It has no commercial value at all. the back straight toilets might have made £15 for kindling/rubble. Edited October 17, 2018 by waytogo28 correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 19 hours ago, Skidder1 said: How much do you think Terry Russell would expect to get if/when he sells Swindon? The tractor at Wolverhampton is probably valued at £150,000 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray c Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 On 10/17/2018 at 9:12 AM, iainb said: The tractor at Wolverhampton is probably valued at £150,000 Does that include the driver ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, ray c said: Does that include the driver ? No he is valued at £50 Edited October 18, 2018 by A ORLOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray c Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, A ORLOV said: No he is valued at £50 That much ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins les Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 On 10/16/2018 at 1:26 PM, Spl77 said: That may be true. However if they can still ride anywhere they wish and are self employed then surely they have no monetary valve to the business? They have some monetary value as the club that has the registration gets a loan fee from the club he rides for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovalman Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 On 10/17/2018 at 7:36 AM, waytogo28 said: Zilch. It has no commercial value at all. the back straight toilets might have made £15 for kindling/rubble. They are a grade 1 listed building therefore cannot be demolished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 On 10/19/2018 at 5:46 PM, auntie doris said: They are a grade 1 listed building therefore cannot be demolished. I regret I had not been made aware of their listing. We are always to eager to destroy our heritage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidder1 Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 3 hours ago, waytogo28 said: I regret I had not been made aware of their listing. We are always to eager to destroy our heritage. They are listing to the left or to the right - depending where you are viewing from.......! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old bob at herne bay Posted October 28, 2018 Report Share Posted October 28, 2018 Well there is a growing number of clubs announced as "up for sale" so it looks like a surplus of supply may drive prices down. We have Poole , Somerset (looking to leave Premiership) Rye House (have track for rental) Swindon (no track in 2019) Lakeside (team no track), Peterborough, Redcar, Workington (team no track) Midenhall, and possibly Eastbourne (?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Bloke Posted October 28, 2018 Report Share Posted October 28, 2018 23 minutes ago, old bob at herne bay said: Well there is a growing number of clubs announced as "up for sale" so it looks like a surplus of supply may drive prices down. We have Poole , Somerset (looking to leave Premiership) Rye House (have track for rental) Swindon (no track in 2019) Lakeside (team no track), Peterborough, Redcar, Workington (team no track) Midenhall, and possibly Eastbourne (?) Somerset and Swindon are not for sale are they? There's a difference "Up for sale" and one team might drop down and Swindon "no track". I don't think any of these are up for sale and think both will ride in 2019. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidder1 Posted October 28, 2018 Report Share Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, old bob at herne bay said: Well there is a growing number of clubs announced as "up for sale" so it looks like a surplus of supply may drive prices down. We have Poole , Somerset (looking to leave Premiership) Rye House (have track for rental) Swindon (no track in 2019) Lakeside (team no track), Peterborough, Redcar, Workington (team no track) Midenhall, and possibly Eastbourne (?) Redcar aren't for sale, they are just seeking a new promoter . All is in hand according to CVS in the Speedy Star. Swindon have got a track in 2019. Why haven't Worky got a track? Edited October 28, 2018 by Skidder1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted October 28, 2018 Report Share Posted October 28, 2018 3 hours ago, old bob at herne bay said: Well there is a growing number of clubs announced as "up for sale" so it looks like a surplus of supply may drive prices down. We have Poole , Somerset (looking to leave Premiership) Rye House (have track for rental) Swindon (no track in 2019) Lakeside (team no track), Peterborough, Redcar, Workington (team no track) Midenhall, and possibly Eastbourne (?) Swindon have got a track in 2019, it is just that it may be the existing one rather than a new one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 Genuine question but what would a prospective promoter actually get when buying a club vs what would it cost to set up a new one and run from one of the existing venues? Certainly in the case of the NL sides who cannot have assets there is little to purchase other than name, so rather than purchase Mildenhall for example why not negotiate directly with the stadium owners and create the Suffolk Shale Shifters ? The chances are the majority of the crowds would still attend anyway and you would have the same product to market so why buy the rights to an existing promotion when you can generate your own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 36 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said: Genuine question but what would a prospective promoter actually get when buying a club vs what would it cost to set up a new one and run from one of the existing venues? Certainly in the case of the NL sides who cannot have assets there is little to purchase other than name, so rather than purchase Mildenhall for example why not negotiate directly with the stadium owners and create the Suffolk Shale Shifters ? The chances are the majority of the crowds would still attend anyway and you would have the same product to market so why buy the rights to an existing promotion when you can generate your own? Because promoters have a license to promote in the given area - to stop “pop-ups” and ensure that there is some value in holding a BSPA license 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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