4thbender Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 10 hours ago, MattK said: Why? I'm not aware of anyone who has stopped going to Swindon because Swindon's captain Nick Morris also rides for Lakeside. Granted, it is not an ideal situation, but the fact is that doubling-up reduces costs for teams in both leagues. "Doubling up" - along with speedway's insidious fixation with using "guests" - makes speedway a laughing stock within the serious sporting community. In any other professional team sport the idea of participants representing more than one team would be a non-starter. Can you imagine the outrage if Liverpool's Mohamed Salah did a bit of moonlighting for Tranmere Rovers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 23 minutes ago, 4thbender said: "Doubling up" - along with speedway's insidious fixation with using "guests" - makes speedway a laughing stock within the serious sporting community. In any other professional team sport the idea of participants representing more than one team would be a non-starter. Can you imagine the outrage if Liverpool's Mohamed Salah did a bit of moonlighting for Tranmere Rovers? Guests are more damaging from a credibility point of view in my opinion, however at this stage the primary focus must be on a sustainable business model, so guests and doubling-up are a necessary evil. Either way, this does not address the underlying point which is why would Championship clubs agree to form into one big league with the Premiership if it going to mean increased costs with no equivalent increase in revenues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigbo Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 I for one am someone who no longer attends Swindon due to both guests and doubling-up being out of control and virtually turning teams into a travelling circus of riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Man Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 23 hours ago, MattK said: Even if the averages were set at Championship levels, most Championship clubs would see their costs rise as they would no longer benefit from sharing the cost of riders who are doubling-up. Riders will only get paid more if the promoters agree, if by some miracle they stick together for the benefit of the sport as a whole costs wont increase The promoters hold the key to it all, rebuild in a sustainable way or go back to the free for all of 2017, and drive away more supporters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, The Third Man said: Riders will only get paid more if the promoters agree, if by some miracle they stick together for the benefit of the sport as a whole costs wont increase The promoters hold the key to it all, rebuild in a sustainable way or go back to the free for all of 2017, and drive away more supporters The problem is not all clubs are financially equal and it only takes one promoter to offer more cash and they get the pick of the riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 7 minutes ago, The Third Man said: Riders will only get paid more if the promoters agree, if by some miracle they stick together for the benefit of the sport as a whole costs wont increase The promoters hold the key to it all, rebuild in a sustainable way or go back to the free for all of 2017, and drive away more supporters Knowing the BSPA the later is more likely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, frigbo said: I for one am someone who no longer attends Swindon due to both guests and doubling-up being out of control and virtually turning teams into a travelling circus of riders. I no longer attend Ipswich for the same reason.... Although in my case the joker or t@#t hat as we knew it also played a major part....... At least they got rid of that. Edited October 15, 2018 by Spl77 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, MattK said: Why? I'm not aware of anyone who has stopped going to Swindon because Swindon's captain Nick Morris also rides for Lakeside. Granted, it is not an ideal situation, but the fact is that doubling-up reduces costs for teams in both leagues. To be honest I doubt most people know or care about it ..another speedway myth that people are that worried about it . People kept on how important it was to have the same 1 to 7 each week and Swindon did that most weeks ..Did it help the crowds ? did the people who left come back ? not at all Edited October 15, 2018 by orion 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbieblackadder fan club Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 Here’s a one out of left field pay riders across the board based on their average if it increases there rate increases if it decreases their rates also does the same make it a performance related deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlislecomet2 Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 Football, particularly at the lower level have a loan system to cover for injuries etc albeit for longer periods rather than one or two matches I grant you. So what is your answer in order to eradicate the guest conundrum? There just isn't the money in the sport to allow for a squad system and unfortunately injuries happen. I don't want to see my team or their opponents containing riders trundling around half a lap behind. The bigger problem is doubling up which is farcical when you basically have the same riders in each of the top 2 leagues. This obviously suits the riders but is another example of how much sway the riders have at present. This will have to change. It has got to go to one league and the riders paid what the promoters can afford/agree to. If it is not enough they can go ride in Poland/Sweden et al, but not in this country. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffdiamond Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 20 minutes ago, MattK said: The problem is not all clubs are financially equal and it only takes one promoter to offer more cash and they get the pick of the riders. 14 minutes ago, robbieblackadder fan club said: Here’s a one out of left field pay riders across the board based on their average if it increases there rate increases if it decreases their rates also does the same make it a performance related deal Even if riders were paid an equal amount, per point or on average, officially,,, there will always be other perks or incentives to make deals 'more attractive'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New era Panthers Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 27 minutes ago, The Third Man said: Riders will only get paid more if the promoters agree, if by some miracle they stick together for the benefit of the sport as a whole costs wont increase The promoters hold the key to it all, rebuild in a sustainable way or go back to the free for all of 2017, and drive away more supporters Even if they did agree to keep rider's on a pay structure that would apply to all, can you imagine how many are likely to break that rule when the situation suits them as there are so many ways to get around such a deal , something like paying a sponsor a set sum which could then be included into a sponsorship deal is just one example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedy bill Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/14/2018 at 8:52 PM, MattK said: The Championship have a league with similar entrance fees to the Premiership, but significantly lower running costs. Why would they want to double their costs without increasing their income by joining a league as you describe? must be a adjustment to riders pay more meetings will cover the cost of riders pay being lowered if they dont like it to bad go ride abroad if they will find a team place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 9 hours ago, New era Panthers said: Even if they did agree to keep rider's on a pay structure that would apply to all, can you imagine how many are likely to break that rule when the situation suits them as there are so many ways to get around such a deal , something like paying a sponsor a set sum which could then be included into a sponsorship deal is just one example. That's why the sport in the UK is doomed. They can never work together for the good of the sport. Now if you had a fully independent body the riders could be on fixed contracts and paid centrally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Honestly Tried to make this as easy as possible to read but stick with it (the worlds longest post) The key points for me; and this is my personal opinion; the following is only the idea to try find a consensus. You need a structure that everyone can see and build teams to compete in. No one wants to go into the top league so there is that issue for a start and there is the perceived imbalance in the second tier, also I haven't even looked at any other suggestions such as rule changes and limitations as I believe taking out rules rather than adding them in, you cant cheat if there isn't a rule there to break. To me there are 3 Team Options to discuss if we need to propose a change from 7 man teams 5 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 12 heat rigid + last 3 heat multiple choice rider selections to give 15 heats This is pretty straight forward I would suggest Once there has been a decision on the team/race format you need a league structure For the League Structure in my humble opinion there are 3 Options 1 big league (Simple enough however I believe the weaker teams crowds will crash if in the bottom 3 or 4 of the league but riders averages will level out) 2 leagues on a who fancies going up basis with riders on differing averages between leagues and the possibility of doubling up/down (So no change really)(and no real volunteers to go into the top league) 2 leagues on a single league format (eh!) no doubling up or down no average off sets or formulas (The cream will rise to the top but something to keep weaker teams viable) The meat of the proposal is as follows for Option 3 above for two leagues; which sounds complicated but it’s not it’s just one big league split in two. TWO DIVISIONS NORTH AND SOUTH - BASED ON 9 TEAMS IN EACH REGIONAL DIVISION NORTHERN DIVISION SOUTHERN DIVISION 1 Belle Vue Aces King's Lynn Stars 2 Berwick Bandits Somerset Rebels 3 Workington Comets Swindon Robins 4 Glasgow Tigers Poole Pirates 5 Edinburgh Monarchs Wolverhampton Wolves 6 Scunthorpe Scorpions Leicester Lions 7 Newcastle Diamonds Lakeside Hammers 8 Sheffield Tigers Peterborough Panthers 9 Redcar Bears Ipswich Witches Above as an exercise is based loosely on final league positions and this forms the first part of the season to get us to the serious competition stages (and of course if we believe all that we read this may not be the list of teams starting next year) Two leagues form up as Regional Divisions so the money spinner local derbies should encourage fans to travel and the meetings are as follows (Note: This does not include any local challenge matches and only the base line of competitive fixtures) (No end-of or pre-season friendlies included) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR TWO REGIONAL DIVISIONS OF 9); TWO DIVISIONS OF 9 = 16 DIVISIONAL MEETINGS; 8 HOME 8 AWAY THE SEASON STARTS 22ND MARCH AND ENDS 30TH JUNE FOR ALL REGIONAL DIVISION FIXTURES (Final Divisional places dictate which League you go into for the second part of the season) After the first half of the season the better teams will obviously rise to the top positions in each Division as above and the split takes place as follows TOP FOUR FROM EACH REGIONAL DIVISION GO INTO PREMIERSHIP LEAGUE 1 THE REMAINDER INTO CHAMPIONSHIP LEAGUE 2 PREMIERSHIP League 1 1 Belle Vue Aces 2 King's Lynn Stars 3 Berwick Bandits 4 Somerset Rebels 5 Workington Comets 6 Swindon Robins 7 Glasgow Tigers 8 Poole Pirates CHAMPIONSHIP League 2 1 Edinburgh Monarchs 2 Wolverhampton Wolves 3 Lakeside Hammers 4 Ipswich Witches 5 Scunthorpe Scorpions 6 Newcastle Diamonds 7 Leicester Lions 8 Peterborough Panthers 9 Sheffield Tigers 10 Redcar Bears So the second part of the season pans out to end up with the play off teams in both leagues with competition and interest for maximum periods. The theory being meetings should be closer as the strong teams will have split out into the top league and play each other. No doubling up or down or across as you don’t know where you will end up for the second half of the season. Everything is geared to competitiveness and keeping matches as close as possible. It also ensures that the perceived top riders/teams are meeting in the Premiership over the season. It should take the fear factor out of the clubs (northern clubs especially) to go up as travel is minimised (still retaining the regional money generators first half of the season and only 7 away fixtures (4 potential big travels) in the top league to reach a potential play-off position) (Ippo, Boro and Lakeside had 8 big away days this season) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 1 OF 8 TEAMS); = 14 PREMIERSHIP MEETINGS; 7 HOME 7 AWAY GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 2 OF 10 TEAMS); = 18 CHAMPIONSHIP MEETINGS; 9 HOME 9 AWAY TOP FOUR IN EACH LEAGUE TO PLAY OF FOR LEAGUE CHAMPIONS STRAIGHT KNOCK OUT (or top 2 in League 2 to reduce fixtures) (if required) THE LEAGUE SEASON STARTS NO LATER THAN 1ST JULY AND ENDS 30TH SEPTEMBER PLAY OFFS CONCLUDED BY 31ST OCTOBER KNOCK OUT CUP PRELIMINARY MATCH 1 HOME 1 AWAY (1st Draw North & South in region then last 8 teams pot luck) KNOCK OUT CUP REGIONS START EARLY IN THE SEASON COMPLETED BY 30TH JUNE QUARTER, SEMI FINAL & FINAL BEFORE 1ST OCTOBER GUARANTEED MINIMUM NUMBER OF 32 MEETINGS 16 HOME 16 AWAY FOR EVERY CLUB The figure of 32 assumes a team gets in to League 1 but misses the play offs and goes out of the cup at the first stage (League 2 team 36 meetings) The potential maximum number of competitive fixtures for a successful team could be For a Division 1 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 42 (21 Home 21 Away) For a Division 2 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 48 (24 Home 24 Away) This is one big league just split into two and and set to a region and it then allows the stronger teams to have a go at each other for the second half of the season and pick your own preferred race day/night. Everyone meets once in the Regional Division and once in the League and the stronger teams will rise to the top With this scenario weaker teams will be able to minimise the impact of being in the bottom two or three of a big league and shouldn’t experience many home losses Riders averages will not need any adjustment as no doubling up/down required and team ability should be closer Following season you are back in your regional group and going for the top slot in that division again so no promotion or relegation This Division/League format gives every club in the country a chance to be the top team in the country if they want to and it is purely performance and success driven The bottom two/three teams in the premiership must feel the impact of being bottom of that league with nothing to play for My only view/fear on the format would be some teams will potentially ride/build (deliberately) to be 5th in the regional table to really have a go at Division 2 (Maybe that’s me being a little bit cynical however it would/could/should be difficult to do!) (possibly) Also the bottom three (should be 4) this year in the Premiership; would they be happy if they were in that position at the midway point of the season and then have to drop into the Championship for the second half of the season as that would be the scenario if they were in those positions in their Regional League. Although they would then have the opportunity to win that 2nd league of course You are dealing with Marmite some will love it and others I suspect will hate it however it is all about finding a common position that everyone can work to and with, also to give the opportunity to maximise the local fixtures and the returns from these meetings in the first half of the season and again the benefit to Belle Vue should be clearly measurable racing against their nearest promotions in the first half of the season. Once the decision is made on 5 or 6 man teams (or staying at 7) and the meeting format over the 15 heats, the set-up of the teams is the next critical factor and what exactly can be achieved from the rider pool of available riders and what the rider averages will settle at in the preferred league structure. The options above dictate as to how the leagues will be set-up for future seasons going forward. In this and previous seasons the rider pool has been 2016 season 150 riders were used by the 21 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 13 teams Div. 2 2017 season 125 riders were used by the 18 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 10 teams Div. 2 2018 season 119 riders have been used by the 18/19 Teams in two leagues 7/8 teams Div. 1 and 11 teams Div. 2 With no Doubling up/down the following number of riders are required 18 x 7 man teams = 126 Riders 19 x 7 man teams = 133 Riders 20 x 7 man teams = 140 Riders 18 x 6 man teams = 108 Riders 19 x 6 man teams = 114 Riders 20 x 6 man teams = 120 Riders 18 x 5 man teams = 90 Riders 19 x 5 man teams = 95 Riders 20 x 5 man teams = 100 Riders How many riders will retire, leave, not come back or just commit to other leagues reducing the rider pool? Also how many riders will come up from the national league and how much will the quality be diluted and will the step up be too great for NL riders. Depending on how many riders are in the team and what the leagues are like the team build options and benefits I believe are as follows One big league or two smaller leagues that come together later will mean there is no need for complicated offsets or multipliers the rider will find their own average Smaller teams mean Higher averages potentially so instead of continually setting a lower build figure a team build to 45 points or more could be achieved Potential to band riders so everyone gets a chance of picking up signings (however this can prove to be complicated when you start applying restrictions) 5/6 man teams could have been achieved this year without the need to double up or down If many of the top riders or foreign riders walk the bottom end of the rider pool will need strengthened with a larger pool and the build average slightly lowered possibly. There is a great deal to take in here with much to discuss however the time is right to get the whole thing out in the open and formulate a plan for the next 5 to 7 years and possibly beyond this so continuity and consistency can prevail and the fans/public can see what the BSPA are trying to achieve. I believe there is a need for an independent chairperson at least to throw things around and stimulate debate and hopefully reach a positive outcome. However I honestly believe it will be a hard slog and sell to pull everyone roughly together as I can imagine there will be a fair bit of resistance and ultimately I don't hold out much confidence that anything will change any time soon due to self interest. Right get your guns out and start shooting its open season Regards THJ Edited October 16, 2018 by TotallyHonestJohn Spelling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thbender Posted October 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 20 hours ago, frigbo said: I for one am someone who no longer attends Swindon due to both guests and doubling-up being out of control and virtually turning teams into a travelling circus of riders. Exactly! In any team sport that takes itself seriously doubling-up and guests would be unthinkable - it runs totally contrary to the spirit of sporting competition. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronScorpion Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 Nice post THJ & something that is close to what needs to be done in cutting down the leagues & team numbers(riders) to suit availability. We are running a similar idea in our Monday Pool league where we now have only 13 teams(used to be around 20 for a few seasons) where we are playing each team once then the league will be split depending on position to form 2 leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New era Panthers Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 39 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Honestly Tried to make this as easy as possible to read but stick with it (the worlds longest post) The key points for me; and this is my personal opinion; the following is only the idea to try find a consensus. You need a structure that everyone can see and build teams to compete in. No one wants to go into the top league so there is that issue fr a start and there is the perceived imbalance in the second tier, also I haven't even looked at any other suggestions such as rule changes and limitations as I believe taking out rules rather than adding them in, you cant cheat if there isn't a rule there to break. To me there are 3 Team Options to discuss if we need to propose a change from 7 man teams 5 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 12 heat rigid + last 3 heat multiple choice rider selections to give 15 heats This is pretty straight forward I would suggest Once there has been a decision on the team/race format you need a league structure For the League Structure in my humble opinion there are 3 Options 1 big league (Simple enough however I believe the weaker teams crowds will crash if in the bottom 3 or 4 of the league but riders averages will level out) 2 leagues on a who fancies going up basis with riders on differing averages between leagues and the possibility of doubling up/down (So no change really)(and no real volunteers to go into the top league) 2 leagues on a single league format (eh!) no doubling up or down no average off sets or formulas (The cream will rise to the top but something to keep weaker teams viable) The meat of the proposal is as follows for Option 3 above for two leagues; which sounds complicated but it’s not it’s just one big league split in two. TWO DIVISIONS NORTH AND SOUTH - BASED ON 9 TEAMS IN EACH REGIONAL DIVISION NORTHERN DIVISION SOUTHERN DIVISION 1 Belle Vue Aces King's Lynn Stars 2 Berwick Bandits Somerset Rebels 3 Workington Comets Swindon Robins 4 Glasgow Tigers Poole Pirates 5 Edinburgh Monarchs Wolverhampton Wolves 6 Scunthorpe Scorpions Leicester Lions 7 Newcastle Diamonds Lakeside Hammers 8 Sheffield Tigers Peterborough Panthers 9 Redcar Bears Ipswich Witches Above as an exercise is based loosely on final league positions and this forms the first part of the season to get us to the serious competition stages (and of course if we believe all that we read this may not be the list of teams starting next year) Two leagues form up as Regional Divisions so the money spinner local derbies should encourage fans to travel and the meetings are as follows (Note: This does not include any local challenge matches and only the base line of competitive fixtures) (No end-of or pre-season friendlies included) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR TWO REGIONAL DIVISIONS OF 9); TWO DIVISIONS OF 9 = 16 DIVISIONAL MEETINGS; 8 HOME 8 AWAY THE SEASON STARTS 22ND MARCH AND ENDS 30TH JUNE FOR ALL REGIONAL DIVISION FIXTURES (Final Divisional places dictate which League you go into for the second part of the season) After the first half of the season the better teams will obviously rise to the top positions in each Division as above and the split takes place as follows TOP FOUR FROM EACH REGIONAL DIVISION GO INTO PREMIERSHIP LEAGUE 1 THE REMAINDER INTO CHAMPIONSHIP LEAGUE 2 PREMIERSHIP League 1 1 Belle Vue Aces 2 King's Lynn Stars 3 Berwick Bandits 4 Somerset Rebels 5 Workington Comets 6 Swindon Robins 7 Glasgow Tigers 8 Poole Pirates CHAMPIONSHIP League 2 1 Edinburgh Monarchs 2 Wolverhampton Wolves 3 Lakeside Hammers 4 Ipswich Witches 5 Scunthorpe Scorpions 6 Newcastle Diamonds 7 Leicester Lions 8 Peterborough Panthers 9 Sheffield Tigers 10 Redcar Bears So the second part of the season pans out to end up with the play off teams in both leagues with competition and interest for maximum periods. The theory being meetings should be closer as the strong teams will have split out into the top league and play each other. No doubling up or down or across as you don’t know where you will end up for the second half of the season. Everything is geared to competitiveness and keeping matches as close as possible. It also ensures that the perceived top riders/teams are meeting in the Premiership over the season. It should take the fear factor out of the clubs (northern clubs especially) to go up as travel is minimised (still retaining the regional money generators first half of the season and only 7 away fixtures (4 potential big travels) in the top league to reach a potential play-off position) (Ippo, Boro and Lakeside had 8 big away days this season) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 1 OF 8 TEAMS); = 14 PREMIERSHIP MEETINGS; 7 HOME 7 AWAY GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 2 OF 10 TEAMS); = 18 CHAMPIONSHIP MEETINGS; 9 HOME 9 AWAY TOP FOUR IN EACH LEAGUE TO PLAY OF FOR LEAGUE CHAMPIONS STRAIGHT KNOCK OUT (or top 2 in League 2 to reduce fixtures) (if required) THE LEAGUE SEASON STARTS NO LATER THAN 1ST JULY AND ENDS 30TH SEPTEMBER PLAY OFFS CONCLUDED BY 31ST OCTOBER KNOCK OUT CUP PRELIMINARY MATCH 1 HOME 1 AWAY (1st Draw North & South in region then last 8 teams pot luck) KNOCK OUT CUP REGIONS START EARLY IN THE SEASON COMPLETED BY 30TH JUNE QUARTER, SEMI FINAL & FINAL BEFORE 1ST OCTOBER GUARANTEED MINIMUM NUMBER OF 32 MEETINGS 16 HOME 16 AWAY FOR EVERY CLUB The figure of 32 assumes a team gets in to League 1 but misses the play offs and goes out of the cup at the first stage (League 2 team 36 meetings) The potential maximum number of competitive fixtures for a successful team could be For a Division 1 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 42 (21 Home 21 Away) For a Division 2 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 48 (24 Home 24 Away) This is one big league just split into two and and set to a region and it then allows the stronger teams to have a go at each other for the second half of the season and pick your own preferred race day/night. Everyone meets once in the Regional Division and once in the League and the stronger teams will rise to the top With this scenario weaker teams will be able to minimise the impact of being in the bottom two or three of a big league and shouldn’t experience many home losses Riders averages will not need any adjustment as no doubling up/down required and team ability should be closer Following season you are back in your regional group and going for the top slot in that division again so no promotion or relegation This Division/League format gives every club in the country a chance to be the top team in the country if they want to and it is purely performance and success driven The bottom two/three teams in the premiership must feel the impact of being bottom of that league with nothing to play for My only view/fear on the format would be some teams will potentially ride/build (deliberately) to be 5th in the regional table to really have a go at Division 2 (Maybe that’s me being a little bit cynical however it would/could/should be difficult to do!) (possibly) Also the bottom three (should be 4) this year in the Premiership; would they be happy if they were in that position at the midway point of the season and then have to drop into the Championship for the second half of the season as that would be the scenario if they were in those positions in their Regional League. Although they would then have the opportunity to win that 2nd league of course You are dealing with Marmite some will love it and others I suspect will hate it however it is all about finding a common position that everyone can work to and with, also to give the opportunity to maximise the local fixtures and the returns from these meetings in the first half of the season and again the benefit to Belle Vue should be clearly measurable racing against their nearest promotions in the first half of the season. Once the decision is made on 5 or 6 man teams (or staying at 7) and the meeting format over the 15 heats, the set-up of the teams is the next critical factor and what exactly can be achieved from the rider pool of available riders and what the rider averages will settle at in the preferred league structure. The options above dictate as to how the leagues will be set-up for future seasons going forward. In this and previous seasons the rider pool has been 2016 season 150 riders were used by the 21 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 13 teams Div. 2 2017 season 125 riders were used by the 18 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 10 teams Div. 2 2018 season 119 riders have been used by the 18/19 Teams in two leagues 7/8 teams Div. 1 and 11 teams Div. 2 With no Doubling up/down the following number of riders are required 18 x 7 man teams = 126 Riders 19 x 7 man teams = 133 Riders 20 x 7 man teams = 140 Riders 18 x 6 man teams = 108 Riders 19 x 6 man teams = 114 Riders 20 x 6 man teams = 120 Riders 18 x 5 man teams = 90 Riders 19 x 5 man teams = 95 Riders 20 x 5 man teams = 100 Riders How many riders will retire, leave, not come back or just commit to other leagues reducing the rider pool? Also how many riders will come up from the national league and how much will the quality be diluted and will the step up be too great for NL riders. Depending on how many riders are in the team and what the leagues are like the team build options and benefits I believe are as follows One big league or two smaller leagues that come together later will mean there is no need for complicated offsets or multipliers the rider will find their own average Smaller teams mean Higher averages potentially so instead of continually setting a lower build figure a team build to 45 points or more could be achieved Potential to band riders so everyone gets a chance of picking up signings (however this can prove to be complicated when you start applying restrictions) 5/6 man teams could have been achieved this year without the need to double up or down If many of the top riders or foreign riders walk the bottom end of the rider pool will need strengthened with a larger pool and the build average slightly lowered possibly. There is a great deal to take in here with much to discuss however the time is right to get the whole thing out in the open and formulate a plan for the next 5 to 7 years and possibly beyond this so continuity and consistency can prevail and the fans/public can see what the BSPA are trying to achieve. I believe there is a need for an independent chairperson at least to throw things around and stimulate debate and hopefully reach a positive outcome. However I honestly believe it will be a hard slog and sell to pull everyone roughly together as I can imagine there will be a fair bit of resistance and ultimately I don't hold out much confidence that anything will change any time soon due to self interest. Right get your guns out and start shooting its open season Regards THJ Well thought out but do you actually think the BSPA will be able to take all this in , let alone implement it , much to complicated for them to understand. 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TotallyHonestJohn Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, New era Panthers said: Well thought out but do you actually think the BSPA will be able to take all this in , let alone implement it , much to complicated for them to understand. Don't think you give some of these Promoters the full credit they are due also some of the rules that they bring in now and apply are fairly complicated. However as I said "open season" but the BSPA sticking their collective heads in the sand is getting nowhere fast either really is it and what the sport really needs is a Barry Hearn type figure and an independent body to preside over the competition/s, and I don't mean a body who will tell them (the BSPA) how to run their business as these promoters take everything personal in my experience. An independent body to just ensure fair play and common ground rules for the benefit of them all and not the certain little cliques they wrap themselves in. Change is always hard to embrace but doesn't have to be painful to achieve and if done in good faith can benefit all and there aren't many Barry Hearn types I can see sitting in the wings waiting to pull the sport out of the doldrums it finds itself in at present Regards THJ Edited October 16, 2018 by TotallyHonestJohn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Man Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, New era Panthers said: Even if they did agree to keep rider's on a pay structure that would apply to all, can you imagine how many are likely to break that rule when the situation suits them as there are so many ways to get around such a deal , something like paying a sponsor a set sum which could then be included into a sponsorship deal is just one example. They either stick together for the good of all or speedway will die I am afraid it will be latter as promoters stick to their own agenda and not care about the other teams they need to form a meaningful league Edited October 16, 2018 by The Third Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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