foamfence Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Honestly Tried to make this as easy as possible to read but stick with it (the worlds longest post) The key points for me; and this is my personal opinion; the following is only the idea to try find a consensus. You need a structure that everyone can see and build teams to compete in. No one wants to go into the top league so there is that issue fr a start and there is the perceived imbalance in the second tier, also I haven't even looked at any other suggestions such as rule changes and limitations as I believe taking out rules rather than adding them in, you cant cheat if there isn't a rule there to break. To me there are 3 Team Options to discuss if we need to propose a change from 7 man teams 5 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 12 heat rigid + last 3 heat multiple choice rider selections to give 15 heats This is pretty straight forward I would suggest Once there has been a decision on the team/race format you need a league structure For the League Structure in my humble opinion there are 3 Options 1 big league (Simple enough however I believe the weaker teams crowds will crash if in the bottom 3 or 4 of the league but riders averages will level out) 2 leagues on a who fancies going up basis with riders on differing averages between leagues and the possibility of doubling up/down (So no change really)(and no real volunteers to go into the top league) 2 leagues on a single league format (eh!) no doubling up or down no average off sets or formulas (The cream will rise to the top but something to keep weaker teams viable) The meat of the proposal is as follows for Option 3 above for two leagues; which sounds complicated but it’s not it’s just one big league split in two. TWO DIVISIONS NORTH AND SOUTH - BASED ON 9 TEAMS IN EACH REGIONAL DIVISION NORTHERN DIVISION SOUTHERN DIVISION 1 Belle Vue Aces King's Lynn Stars 2 Berwick Bandits Somerset Rebels 3 Workington Comets Swindon Robins 4 Glasgow Tigers Poole Pirates 5 Edinburgh Monarchs Wolverhampton Wolves 6 Scunthorpe Scorpions Leicester Lions 7 Newcastle Diamonds Lakeside Hammers 8 Sheffield Tigers Peterborough Panthers 9 Redcar Bears Ipswich Witches Above as an exercise is based loosely on final league positions and this forms the first part of the season to get us to the serious competition stages (and of course if we believe all that we read this may not be the list of teams starting next year) Two leagues form up as Regional Divisions so the money spinner local derbies should encourage fans to travel and the meetings are as follows (Note: This does not include any local challenge matches and only the base line of competitive fixtures) (No end-of or pre-season friendlies included) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR TWO REGIONAL DIVISIONS OF 9); TWO DIVISIONS OF 9 = 16 DIVISIONAL MEETINGS; 8 HOME 8 AWAY THE SEASON STARTS 22ND MARCH AND ENDS 30TH JUNE FOR ALL REGIONAL DIVISION FIXTURES (Final Divisional places dictate which League you go into for the second part of the season) After the first half of the season the better teams will obviously rise to the top positions in each Division as above and the split takes place as follows TOP FOUR FROM EACH REGIONAL DIVISION GO INTO PREMIERSHIP LEAGUE 1 THE REMAINDER INTO CHAMPIONSHIP LEAGUE 2 PREMIERSHIP League 1 1 Belle Vue Aces 2 King's Lynn Stars 3 Berwick Bandits 4 Somerset Rebels 5 Workington Comets 6 Swindon Robins 7 Glasgow Tigers 8 Poole Pirates CHAMPIONSHIP League 2 1 Edinburgh Monarchs 2 Wolverhampton Wolves 3 Lakeside Hammers 4 Ipswich Witches 5 Scunthorpe Scorpions 6 Newcastle Diamonds 7 Leicester Lions 8 Peterborough Panthers 9 Sheffield Tigers 10 Redcar Bears So the second part of the season pans out to end up with the play off teams in both leagues with competition and interest for maximum periods. The theory being meetings should be closer as the strong teams will have split out into the top league and play each other. No doubling up or down or across as you don’t know where you will end up for the second half of the season. Everything is geared to competitiveness and keeping matches as close as possible. It also ensures that the perceived top riders/teams are meeting in the Premiership over the season. It should take the fear factor out of the clubs (northern clubs especially) to go up as travel is minimised (still retaining the regional money generators first half of the season and only 7 away fixtures (4 potential big travels) in the top league to reach a potential play-off position) (Ippo, Boro and Lakeside had 8 big away days this season) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 1 OF 8 TEAMS); = 14 PREMIERSHIP MEETINGS; 7 HOME 7 AWAY GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 2 OF 10 TEAMS); = 18 CHAMPIONSHIP MEETINGS; 9 HOME 9 AWAY TOP FOUR IN EACH LEAGUE TO PLAY OF FOR LEAGUE CHAMPIONS STRAIGHT KNOCK OUT (or top 2 in League 2 to reduce fixtures) (if required) THE LEAGUE SEASON STARTS NO LATER THAN 1ST JULY AND ENDS 30TH SEPTEMBER PLAY OFFS CONCLUDED BY 31ST OCTOBER KNOCK OUT CUP PRELIMINARY MATCH 1 HOME 1 AWAY (1st Draw North & South in region then last 8 teams pot luck) KNOCK OUT CUP REGIONS START EARLY IN THE SEASON COMPLETED BY 30TH JUNE QUARTER, SEMI FINAL & FINAL BEFORE 1ST OCTOBER GUARANTEED MINIMUM NUMBER OF 32 MEETINGS 16 HOME 16 AWAY FOR EVERY CLUB The figure of 32 assumes a team gets in to League 1 but misses the play offs and goes out of the cup at the first stage (League 2 team 36 meetings) The potential maximum number of competitive fixtures for a successful team could be For a Division 1 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 42 (21 Home 21 Away) For a Division 2 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 48 (24 Home 24 Away) This is one big league just split into two and and set to a region and it then allows the stronger teams to have a go at each other for the second half of the season and pick your own preferred race day/night. Everyone meets once in the Regional Division and once in the League and the stronger teams will rise to the top With this scenario weaker teams will be able to minimise the impact of being in the bottom two or three of a big league and shouldn’t experience many home losses Riders averages will not need any adjustment as no doubling up/down required and team ability should be closer Following season you are back in your regional group and going for the top slot in that division again so no promotion or relegation This Division/League format gives every club in the country a chance to be the top team in the country if they want to and it is purely performance and success driven The bottom two/three teams in the premiership must feel the impact of being bottom of that league with nothing to play for My only view/fear on the format would be some teams will potentially ride/build (deliberately) to be 5th in the regional table to really have a go at Division 2 (Maybe that’s me being a little bit cynical however it would/could/should be difficult to do!) (possibly) Also the bottom three (should be 4) this year in the Premiership; would they be happy if they were in that position at the midway point of the season and then have to drop into the Championship for the second half of the season as that would be the scenario if they were in those positions in their Regional League. Although they would then have the opportunity to win that 2nd league of course You are dealing with Marmite some will love it and others I suspect will hate it however it is all about finding a common position that everyone can work to and with, also to give the opportunity to maximise the local fixtures and the returns from these meetings in the first half of the season and again the benefit to Belle Vue should be clearly measurable racing against their nearest promotions in the first half of the season. Once the decision is made on 5 or 6 man teams (or staying at 7) and the meeting format over the 15 heats, the set-up of the teams is the next critical factor and what exactly can be achieved from the rider pool of available riders and what the rider averages will settle at in the preferred league structure. The options above dictate as to how the leagues will be set-up for future seasons going forward. In this and previous seasons the rider pool has been 2016 season 150 riders were used by the 21 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 13 teams Div. 2 2017 season 125 riders were used by the 18 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 10 teams Div. 2 2018 season 119 riders have been used by the 18/19 Teams in two leagues 7/8 teams Div. 1 and 11 teams Div. 2 With no Doubling up/down the following number of riders are required 18 x 7 man teams = 126 Riders 19 x 7 man teams = 133 Riders 20 x 7 man teams = 140 Riders 18 x 6 man teams = 108 Riders 19 x 6 man teams = 114 Riders 20 x 6 man teams = 120 Riders 18 x 5 man teams = 90 Riders 19 x 5 man teams = 95 Riders 20 x 5 man teams = 100 Riders How many riders will retire, leave, not come back or just commit to other leagues reducing the rider pool? Also how many riders will come up from the national league and how much will the quality be diluted and will the step up be too great for NL riders. Depending on how many riders are in the team and what the leagues are like the team build options and benefits I believe are as follows One big league or two smaller leagues that come together later will mean there is no need for complicated offsets or multipliers the rider will find their own average Smaller teams mean Higher averages potentially so instead of continually setting a lower build figure a team build to 45 points or more could be achieved Potential to band riders so everyone gets a chance of picking up signings (however this can prove to be complicated when you start applying restrictions) 5/6 man teams could have been achieved this year without the need to double up or down If many of the top riders or foreign riders walk the bottom end of the rider pool will need strengthened with a larger pool and the build average slightly lowered possibly. There is a great deal to take in here with much to discuss however the time is right to get the whole thing out in the open and formulate a plan for the next 5 to 7 years and possibly beyond this so continuity and consistency can prevail and the fans/public can see what the BSPA are trying to achieve. I believe there is a need for an independent chairperson at least to throw things around and stimulate debate and hopefully reach a positive outcome. However I honestly believe it will be a hard slog and sell to pull everyone roughly together as I can imagine there will be a fair bit of resistance and ultimately I don't hold out much confidence that anything will change any time soon due to self interest. Right get your guns out and start shooting its open season Regards THJ I think that the doubts about several clubs future's might play a part, if there is to be a second division it should have to be a gateway for young riders (say, two per club). 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jenga Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 2 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Honestly Tried to make this as easy as possible to read but stick with it (the worlds longest post) The key points for me; and this is my personal opinion; the following is only the idea to try find a consensus. You need a structure that everyone can see and build teams to compete in. No one wants to go into the top league so there is that issue fr a start and there is the perceived imbalance in the second tier, also I haven't even looked at any other suggestions such as rule changes and limitations as I believe taking out rules rather than adding them in, you cant cheat if there isn't a rule there to break. To me there are 3 Team Options to discuss if we need to propose a change from 7 man teams 5 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 12 heat rigid + last 3 heat multiple choice rider selections to give 15 heats This is pretty straight forward I would suggest Once there has been a decision on the team/race format you need a league structure For the League Structure in my humble opinion there are 3 Options 1 big league (Simple enough however I believe the weaker teams crowds will crash if in the bottom 3 or 4 of the league but riders averages will level out) 2 leagues on a who fancies going up basis with riders on differing averages between leagues and the possibility of doubling up/down (So no change really)(and no real volunteers to go into the top league) 2 leagues on a single league format (eh!) no doubling up or down no average off sets or formulas (The cream will rise to the top but something to keep weaker teams viable) The meat of the proposal is as follows for Option 3 above for two leagues; which sounds complicated but it’s not it’s just one big league split in two. TWO DIVISIONS NORTH AND SOUTH - BASED ON 9 TEAMS IN EACH REGIONAL DIVISION NORTHERN DIVISION SOUTHERN DIVISION 1 Belle Vue Aces King's Lynn Stars 2 Berwick Bandits Somerset Rebels 3 Workington Comets Swindon Robins 4 Glasgow Tigers Poole Pirates 5 Edinburgh Monarchs Wolverhampton Wolves 6 Scunthorpe Scorpions Leicester Lions 7 Newcastle Diamonds Lakeside Hammers 8 Sheffield Tigers Peterborough Panthers 9 Redcar Bears Ipswich Witches Above as an exercise is based loosely on final league positions and this forms the first part of the season to get us to the serious competition stages (and of course if we believe all that we read this may not be the list of teams starting next year) Two leagues form up as Regional Divisions so the money spinner local derbies should encourage fans to travel and the meetings are as follows (Note: This does not include any local challenge matches and only the base line of competitive fixtures) (No end-of or pre-season friendlies included) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR TWO REGIONAL DIVISIONS OF 9); TWO DIVISIONS OF 9 = 16 DIVISIONAL MEETINGS; 8 HOME 8 AWAY THE SEASON STARTS 22ND MARCH AND ENDS 30TH JUNE FOR ALL REGIONAL DIVISION FIXTURES (Final Divisional places dictate which League you go into for the second part of the season) After the first half of the season the better teams will obviously rise to the top positions in each Division as above and the split takes place as follows TOP FOUR FROM EACH REGIONAL DIVISION GO INTO PREMIERSHIP LEAGUE 1 THE REMAINDER INTO CHAMPIONSHIP LEAGUE 2 PREMIERSHIP League 1 1 Belle Vue Aces 2 King's Lynn Stars 3 Berwick Bandits 4 Somerset Rebels 5 Workington Comets 6 Swindon Robins 7 Glasgow Tigers 8 Poole Pirates CHAMPIONSHIP League 2 1 Edinburgh Monarchs 2 Wolverhampton Wolves 3 Lakeside Hammers 4 Ipswich Witches 5 Scunthorpe Scorpions 6 Newcastle Diamonds 7 Leicester Lions 8 Peterborough Panthers 9 Sheffield Tigers 10 Redcar Bears So the second part of the season pans out to end up with the play off teams in both leagues with competition and interest for maximum periods. The theory being meetings should be closer as the strong teams will have split out into the top league and play each other. No doubling up or down or across as you don’t know where you will end up for the second half of the season. Everything is geared to competitiveness and keeping matches as close as possible. It also ensures that the perceived top riders/teams are meeting in the Premiership over the season. It should take the fear factor out of the clubs (northern clubs especially) to go up as travel is minimised (still retaining the regional money generators first half of the season and only 7 away fixtures (4 potential big travels) in the top league to reach a potential play-off position) (Ippo, Boro and Lakeside had 8 big away days this season) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 1 OF 8 TEAMS); = 14 PREMIERSHIP MEETINGS; 7 HOME 7 AWAY GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 2 OF 10 TEAMS); = 18 CHAMPIONSHIP MEETINGS; 9 HOME 9 AWAY TOP FOUR IN EACH LEAGUE TO PLAY OF FOR LEAGUE CHAMPIONS STRAIGHT KNOCK OUT (or top 2 in League 2 to reduce fixtures) (if required) THE LEAGUE SEASON STARTS NO LATER THAN 1ST JULY AND ENDS 30TH SEPTEMBER PLAY OFFS CONCLUDED BY 31ST OCTOBER KNOCK OUT CUP PRELIMINARY MATCH 1 HOME 1 AWAY (1st Draw North & South in region then last 8 teams pot luck) KNOCK OUT CUP REGIONS START EARLY IN THE SEASON COMPLETED BY 30TH JUNE QUARTER, SEMI FINAL & FINAL BEFORE 1ST OCTOBER GUARANTEED MINIMUM NUMBER OF 32 MEETINGS 16 HOME 16 AWAY FOR EVERY CLUB The figure of 32 assumes a team gets in to League 1 but misses the play offs and goes out of the cup at the first stage (League 2 team 36 meetings) The potential maximum number of competitive fixtures for a successful team could be For a Division 1 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 42 (21 Home 21 Away) For a Division 2 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 48 (24 Home 24 Away) This is one big league just split into two and and set to a region and it then allows the stronger teams to have a go at each other for the second half of the season and pick your own preferred race day/night. Everyone meets once in the Regional Division and once in the League and the stronger teams will rise to the top With this scenario weaker teams will be able to minimise the impact of being in the bottom two or three of a big league and shouldn’t experience many home losses Riders averages will not need any adjustment as no doubling up/down required and team ability should be closer Following season you are back in your regional group and going for the top slot in that division again so no promotion or relegation This Division/League format gives every club in the country a chance to be the top team in the country if they want to and it is purely performance and success driven The bottom two/three teams in the premiership must feel the impact of being bottom of that league with nothing to play for My only view/fear on the format would be some teams will potentially ride/build (deliberately) to be 5th in the regional table to really have a go at Division 2 (Maybe that’s me being a little bit cynical however it would/could/should be difficult to do!) (possibly) Also the bottom three (should be 4) this year in the Premiership; would they be happy if they were in that position at the midway point of the season and then have to drop into the Championship for the second half of the season as that would be the scenario if they were in those positions in their Regional League. Although they would then have the opportunity to win that 2nd league of course You are dealing with Marmite some will love it and others I suspect will hate it however it is all about finding a common position that everyone can work to and with, also to give the opportunity to maximise the local fixtures and the returns from these meetings in the first half of the season and again the benefit to Belle Vue should be clearly measurable racing against their nearest promotions in the first half of the season. Once the decision is made on 5 or 6 man teams (or staying at 7) and the meeting format over the 15 heats, the set-up of the teams is the next critical factor and what exactly can be achieved from the rider pool of available riders and what the rider averages will settle at in the preferred league structure. The options above dictate as to how the leagues will be set-up for future seasons going forward. In this and previous seasons the rider pool has been 2016 season 150 riders were used by the 21 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 13 teams Div. 2 2017 season 125 riders were used by the 18 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 10 teams Div. 2 2018 season 119 riders have been used by the 18/19 Teams in two leagues 7/8 teams Div. 1 and 11 teams Div. 2 With no Doubling up/down the following number of riders are required 18 x 7 man teams = 126 Riders 19 x 7 man teams = 133 Riders 20 x 7 man teams = 140 Riders 18 x 6 man teams = 108 Riders 19 x 6 man teams = 114 Riders 20 x 6 man teams = 120 Riders 18 x 5 man teams = 90 Riders 19 x 5 man teams = 95 Riders 20 x 5 man teams = 100 Riders How many riders will retire, leave, not come back or just commit to other leagues reducing the rider pool? Also how many riders will come up from the national league and how much will the quality be diluted and will the step up be too great for NL riders. Depending on how many riders are in the team and what the leagues are like the team build options and benefits I believe are as follows One big league or two smaller leagues that come together later will mean there is no need for complicated offsets or multipliers the rider will find their own average Smaller teams mean Higher averages potentially so instead of continually setting a lower build figure a team build to 45 points or more could be achieved Potential to band riders so everyone gets a chance of picking up signings (however this can prove to be complicated when you start applying restrictions) 5/6 man teams could have been achieved this year without the need to double up or down If many of the top riders or foreign riders walk the bottom end of the rider pool will need strengthened with a larger pool and the build average slightly lowered possibly. There is a great deal to take in here with much to discuss however the time is right to get the whole thing out in the open and formulate a plan for the next 5 to 7 years and possibly beyond this so continuity and consistency can prevail and the fans/public can see what the BSPA are trying to achieve. I believe there is a need for an independent chairperson at least to throw things around and stimulate debate and hopefully reach a positive outcome. However I honestly believe it will be a hard slog and sell to pull everyone roughly together as I can imagine there will be a fair bit of resistance and ultimately I don't hold out much confidence that anything will change any time soon due to self interest. Right get your guns out and start shooting its open season Regards THJ and there is only one turkey they are going to shoot ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 44 minutes ago, foamfence said: I think that the doubts about several clubs future's might play a part, if there is to be a second division it should have to be a gateway for young riders (say, two per club). Think you are correct although I don't want to believe it 8 minutes ago, jenga said: and there is only one turkey they are going to shoot ! Gobble Gobble Regards THJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluenose Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Honest John,great thinking,read every line ,i thought along the same lines as you , right lets go. 1 6 Man teams plus 2 NL (experienced) squad members 2 Up to 45 point limit 3 No 8 point rider limit 4 15 Heat Format 5 2 Tacci Subs a match(6 points behind and 8 points behind).................. plus Injured Rider Replacement (seems logical with only 6 riders) 6 Northern Championship ( 8 or 9 teams ) Southern Championship (8 or 9 teams) 7 Guest only allowed for the number 1,guest to come from opposite division. 8 As John said top 4 teams from each league form Premier League.,bottom 5 to form Championship. 9 Area cups to be finished by switch................ Prem/Champ cups to be held after all league matches completed. 10 Good Idea ...................................( Prem / Champ cups could be 4 team matches as to stop fixture congestion) 11 Teams put in National League who cannot get all fixtures planned in(not enough dates ?) Edited October 16, 2018 by Bluenose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singy13 Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Honestly Tried to make this as easy as possible to read but stick with it (the worlds longest post) The key points for me; and this is my personal opinion; the following is only the idea to try find a consensus. You need a structure that everyone can see and build teams to compete in. No one wants to go into the top league so there is that issue fr a start and there is the perceived imbalance in the second tier, also I haven't even looked at any other suggestions such as rule changes and limitations as I believe taking out rules rather than adding them in, you cant cheat if there isn't a rule there to break. To me there are 3 Team Options to discuss if we need to propose a change from 7 man teams 5 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 15 heat rigid 6 man format 12 heat rigid + last 3 heat multiple choice rider selections to give 15 heats This is pretty straight forward I would suggest Once there has been a decision on the team/race format you need a league structure For the League Structure in my humble opinion there are 3 Options 1 big league (Simple enough however I believe the weaker teams crowds will crash if in the bottom 3 or 4 of the league but riders averages will level out) 2 leagues on a who fancies going up basis with riders on differing averages between leagues and the possibility of doubling up/down (So no change really)(and no real volunteers to go into the top league) 2 leagues on a single league format (eh!) no doubling up or down no average off sets or formulas (The cream will rise to the top but something to keep weaker teams viable) The meat of the proposal is as follows for Option 3 above for two leagues; which sounds complicated but it’s not it’s just one big league split in two. TWO DIVISIONS NORTH AND SOUTH - BASED ON 9 TEAMS IN EACH REGIONAL DIVISION NORTHERN DIVISION SOUTHERN DIVISION 1 Belle Vue Aces King's Lynn Stars 2 Berwick Bandits Somerset Rebels 3 Workington Comets Swindon Robins 4 Glasgow Tigers Poole Pirates 5 Edinburgh Monarchs Wolverhampton Wolves 6 Scunthorpe Scorpions Leicester Lions 7 Newcastle Diamonds Lakeside Hammers 8 Sheffield Tigers Peterborough Panthers 9 Redcar Bears Ipswich Witches Above as an exercise is based loosely on final league positions and this forms the first part of the season to get us to the serious competition stages (and of course if we believe all that we read this may not be the list of teams starting next year) Two leagues form up as Regional Divisions so the money spinner local derbies should encourage fans to travel and the meetings are as follows (Note: This does not include any local challenge matches and only the base line of competitive fixtures) (No end-of or pre-season friendlies included) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR TWO REGIONAL DIVISIONS OF 9); TWO DIVISIONS OF 9 = 16 DIVISIONAL MEETINGS; 8 HOME 8 AWAY THE SEASON STARTS 22ND MARCH AND ENDS 30TH JUNE FOR ALL REGIONAL DIVISION FIXTURES (Final Divisional places dictate which League you go into for the second part of the season) After the first half of the season the better teams will obviously rise to the top positions in each Division as above and the split takes place as follows TOP FOUR FROM EACH REGIONAL DIVISION GO INTO PREMIERSHIP LEAGUE 1 THE REMAINDER INTO CHAMPIONSHIP LEAGUE 2 PREMIERSHIP League 1 1 Belle Vue Aces 2 King's Lynn Stars 3 Berwick Bandits 4 Somerset Rebels 5 Workington Comets 6 Swindon Robins 7 Glasgow Tigers 8 Poole Pirates CHAMPIONSHIP League 2 1 Edinburgh Monarchs 2 Wolverhampton Wolves 3 Lakeside Hammers 4 Ipswich Witches 5 Scunthorpe Scorpions 6 Newcastle Diamonds 7 Leicester Lions 8 Peterborough Panthers 9 Sheffield Tigers 10 Redcar Bears So the second part of the season pans out to end up with the play off teams in both leagues with competition and interest for maximum periods. The theory being meetings should be closer as the strong teams will have split out into the top league and play each other. No doubling up or down or across as you don’t know where you will end up for the second half of the season. Everything is geared to competitiveness and keeping matches as close as possible. It also ensures that the perceived top riders/teams are meeting in the Premiership over the season. It should take the fear factor out of the clubs (northern clubs especially) to go up as travel is minimised (still retaining the regional money generators first half of the season and only 7 away fixtures (4 potential big travels) in the top league to reach a potential play-off position) (Ippo, Boro and Lakeside had 8 big away days this season) GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 1 OF 8 TEAMS); = 14 PREMIERSHIP MEETINGS; 7 HOME 7 AWAY GUARANTEED FIXTURES (FOR LEAGUE 2 OF 10 TEAMS); = 18 CHAMPIONSHIP MEETINGS; 9 HOME 9 AWAY TOP FOUR IN EACH LEAGUE TO PLAY OF FOR LEAGUE CHAMPIONS STRAIGHT KNOCK OUT (or top 2 in League 2 to reduce fixtures) (if required) THE LEAGUE SEASON STARTS NO LATER THAN 1ST JULY AND ENDS 30TH SEPTEMBER PLAY OFFS CONCLUDED BY 31ST OCTOBER KNOCK OUT CUP PRELIMINARY MATCH 1 HOME 1 AWAY (1st Draw North & South in region then last 8 teams pot luck) KNOCK OUT CUP REGIONS START EARLY IN THE SEASON COMPLETED BY 30TH JUNE QUARTER, SEMI FINAL & FINAL BEFORE 1ST OCTOBER GUARANTEED MINIMUM NUMBER OF 32 MEETINGS 16 HOME 16 AWAY FOR EVERY CLUB The figure of 32 assumes a team gets in to League 1 but misses the play offs and goes out of the cup at the first stage (League 2 team 36 meetings) The potential maximum number of competitive fixtures for a successful team could be For a Division 1 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 42 (21 Home 21 Away) For a Division 2 team winning the Cup from a preliminary round and the League play-off is 48 (24 Home 24 Away) This is one big league just split into two and and set to a region and it then allows the stronger teams to have a go at each other for the second half of the season and pick your own preferred race day/night. Everyone meets once in the Regional Division and once in the League and the stronger teams will rise to the top With this scenario weaker teams will be able to minimise the impact of being in the bottom two or three of a big league and shouldn’t experience many home losses Riders averages will not need any adjustment as no doubling up/down required and team ability should be closer Following season you are back in your regional group and going for the top slot in that division again so no promotion or relegation This Division/League format gives every club in the country a chance to be the top team in the country if they want to and it is purely performance and success driven The bottom two/three teams in the premiership must feel the impact of being bottom of that league with nothing to play for My only view/fear on the format would be some teams will potentially ride/build (deliberately) to be 5th in the regional table to really have a go at Division 2 (Maybe that’s me being a little bit cynical however it would/could/should be difficult to do!) (possibly) Also the bottom three (should be 4) this year in the Premiership; would they be happy if they were in that position at the midway point of the season and then have to drop into the Championship for the second half of the season as that would be the scenario if they were in those positions in their Regional League. Although they would then have the opportunity to win that 2nd league of course You are dealing with Marmite some will love it and others I suspect will hate it however it is all about finding a common position that everyone can work to and with, also to give the opportunity to maximise the local fixtures and the returns from these meetings in the first half of the season and again the benefit to Belle Vue should be clearly measurable racing against their nearest promotions in the first half of the season. Once the decision is made on 5 or 6 man teams (or staying at 7) and the meeting format over the 15 heats, the set-up of the teams is the next critical factor and what exactly can be achieved from the rider pool of available riders and what the rider averages will settle at in the preferred league structure. The options above dictate as to how the leagues will be set-up for future seasons going forward. In this and previous seasons the rider pool has been 2016 season 150 riders were used by the 21 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 13 teams Div. 2 2017 season 125 riders were used by the 18 Teams in two leagues 8 teams Div. 1 and 10 teams Div. 2 2018 season 119 riders have been used by the 18/19 Teams in two leagues 7/8 teams Div. 1 and 11 teams Div. 2 With no Doubling up/down the following number of riders are required 18 x 7 man teams = 126 Riders 19 x 7 man teams = 133 Riders 20 x 7 man teams = 140 Riders 18 x 6 man teams = 108 Riders 19 x 6 man teams = 114 Riders 20 x 6 man teams = 120 Riders 18 x 5 man teams = 90 Riders 19 x 5 man teams = 95 Riders 20 x 5 man teams = 100 Riders How many riders will retire, leave, not come back or just commit to other leagues reducing the rider pool? Also how many riders will come up from the national league and how much will the quality be diluted and will the step up be too great for NL riders. Depending on how many riders are in the team and what the leagues are like the team build options and benefits I believe are as follows One big league or two smaller leagues that come together later will mean there is no need for complicated offsets or multipliers the rider will find their own average Smaller teams mean Higher averages potentially so instead of continually setting a lower build figure a team build to 45 points or more could be achieved Potential to band riders so everyone gets a chance of picking up signings (however this can prove to be complicated when you start applying restrictions) 5/6 man teams could have been achieved this year without the need to double up or down If many of the top riders or foreign riders walk the bottom end of the rider pool will need strengthened with a larger pool and the build average slightly lowered possibly. There is a great deal to take in here with much to discuss however the time is right to get the whole thing out in the open and formulate a plan for the next 5 to 7 years and possibly beyond this so continuity and consistency can prevail and the fans/public can see what the BSPA are trying to achieve. I believe there is a need for an independent chairperson at least to throw things around and stimulate debate and hopefully reach a positive outcome. However I honestly believe it will be a hard slog and sell to pull everyone roughly together as I can imagine there will be a fair bit of resistance and ultimately I don't hold out much confidence that anything will change any time soon due to self interest. Right get your guns out and start shooting its open season Regards THJ And am I right in reading previously that you use a laptop at work........if so gizza job marra.... Oh and have you included race nights in the above.....heads done in too much to read it again....good tho ...give you that.(Mind you have put fr instead of 'for' on line 3..lol) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlislecomet2 Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 THJ, unlike others I am not going to quote your comments verbatim - unless we are going for the longest thread in history. They are a great read and make a lot of sense but probably too much sense! As I have said on this thread earlier I don't think there is much wrong with the rules and regulations as they are, they just need to be overseen and ruled over by an independent body (including if possible a couple of ex riders). The 2 league single league would end doubling up which is my biggest bugbear and if some riders decide they are then not going to make enough money let them ply their trade solely in mainland Europe. Guests, which I think are inevitably going to be needed due to injuries to come from the 'other' league only. At least guests, though not ideal I know, help to ensure meetings remain competitive. We have all had seasons where our team has been decimated by injury and none of us want to want to watch a couple of National League riders trundling along half a lap behind for half a season. I hated the use of the joker and do not particularly like the tactical sub either - I would rather see a return to the bonus point system for whoever comes out on top on aggregate after the home and away meetings, however this could lead to tracks being over prepared to suit the home team (so maybe not). I have been harping on about trying to get a Barry Hearn type character involved for years, to grab hold of the sport and give it a real good shake but it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation as the sport really needs to help itself first in order to make it a more attractive and marketable proposition. Over to you THJ - now get on with some work! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulco Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 THJ , your ideas have a lot of merit , but for something like that to work , the governing body ( especially the second half of your season ) has to take charge and take away the organising of fixtures from the clubs . They have to implement the fixture list to suit the competion not the clubs themselves . If riders are missing for whatever reason , too bad deal with it . 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old bob at herne bay Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 Keep the SGP on BT Sports. Shut down the Premier League and Championship. Put everyone out of their misery. Keep the National League with its teams of part time riders and affordable pay rates and admission fees. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PE7Panther Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Paulco said: THJ , your ideas have a lot of merit , but for something like that to work , the governing body ( especially the second half of your season ) has to take charge and take away the organising of fixtures from the clubs . They have to implement the fixture list to suit the competion (sic) not the clubs themselves . If riders are missing for whatever reason , too bad deal with it . That's all very well, but what about clubs like Panthers who don't own their stadium and have to fit in with dates made available to them (in Panthers' case, by the EoES management) Edited October 17, 2018 by PE7Panther 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 14 hours ago, Paulco said: THJ , your ideas have a lot of merit , but for something like that to work , the governing body ( especially the second half of your season ) has to take charge and take away the organising of fixtures from the clubs . They have to implement the fixture list to suit the competion not the clubs themselves . If riders are missing for whatever reason , too bad deal with it . 1 minute ago, PE7Panther said: That's all very well, but what about clubs like Panthers who don't own their stadium and have to fit in with dates made available to them (in Panthers case, by the EoES management) Valid points and no matter what is proposed if there isn't the will to make it work by all the promotions (BSPA) then nothing changes which is and always has been the problem. Promotions go all out to "Screw each other over" and everyone is wary of each other micro analysing every angle of every point, rule or guideline and seeing what they can gain from , or get out of, each proposal and if it isn't a perfect fit to/for what they want then it is binned or manipulated so much that the idea dies the death, no matter how good or well intentioned. How many good ideas have there been to try and move the sport forward but you find them scattered along the way because Team A didn't like it because it stopped them doing what they wanted to do (rightly or wrongly) or Team B didn't like it even though it was a good idea but it came from that lot at Team C and we don't like them. Honestly the attitude of promotions is strangling the sport when it is run on the lines of a "kids in a creche mentality" at times and you expect to hear "I'm not doing that cos my dad is bigger than your dad" its pathetic. The management committee are toothless and its a "free for all", then the incessant fiddling around the edges each year at the annual conference with the comment that "it was the best ever annual conference EVER and we are moving the sport forward by tinkering with the Rules, Averages, Competitions and anything else that is totally uncontroversial and doesn't upset anyone". Buster was going to knock doors out of windows when he first started and I for one felt confident that there would be genuine improvements and change but he has just run into a solid brick wall and all his good intentions and ideas are just scattered along the road as per usual. So same old crap just a different wrapper but a few people need to take a long hard look at themselves and ask a few honest questions about their role in this sorry saga. It needs someone to get a grip and reign in promotions, set out a plan for the next 5 to 7 years (10 to 12 would be better) Set out a charter for the sport and get the promotions to sign up to it. Rule No.1 we will not screw over other promotions, the riders or the fans maybe. Everyone wants the sport to succeed but the torpor it now finds itself in is near terminally catatonic. No one ever disagrees in the suggestion often made on here that there should be an independent body running the competitions, and please note I have said "the competitions" rather than "the sport" but they cant even agree on that. An independent body was tried in the past and got shafted that much it just disappeared. Surely Promoter's should be free to promote the sport in whatever way they see fit, they should be allowed to build and run their teams in whatever way the see as the most productive and profitable within the rules, trying to reach the pinnacle of the sport by being the best team in the UK. What is wrong with that goal. Just why cant the competitive structure and the basic rules not be; or need to be seen to be; managed independently, managed for the many not the few, and if this puts a few noses out of joint so be it. To many cliques exist at present with the constant pervasiveness of distrust and this cycle needs to be broken, the american phrase of "wake up and smell the coffee" has never been more appropriate and certainly isn't a metaphor with its "become aware of the realities of a situation, however unpleasant " meaning. I am starting to believe some on here who state that the well intentioned fan is being taken for a ride, yep they could be right, my suggestion would be "do something radical" start with the structure, tie in promotions with a charter, let someone who is independent manage the competitions and the rules, unshackle clubs and allow them to run on nights they feel is beneficial, don't worry what Poland are doing (stuff them) start to work together for the benefit of the sport as promotions, after all you have tried to to plough a lone furrow and look after your own self interest and all we hear is it is costing you money, (fortunes in some cases) well here's a daft idea try and work together for a change and see if you can make the sport profitable for each other, you may never get back to the heady days of the 50's, 60's or 70's but you can live in hope. Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauger65 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Regardless of how many leagues and depending on how many teams are in my league what i want is the following 1 A season that has competitive matches from April to mid September league cut off - with 3 weeks in 4 having a meeting (not 1 in 6 weeks like this year at some stages !!!) 2 Riders that are committed to riding in Britain and fulfil their league meeting requirements - Im sick of the number of weakened teams who come to Newcastle 3 A Knock Out Cup competition that has rounds in every month May, June and July with a final in August (controversial) 4 A league cup competition that has fixtures completed by April ............ semi's in May and final in June (controversial) 5 a 4 team tournament with only 8 teams in it on the day (but some form of qualifying so ALL teams get a chance .... not just the top 8 averages) 6 all teams to have 2 home and 2 away meetings in the 1st 2 weeks of September - so there is some excitement about reaching the playoffs in the last 2 weeks of the season - rather than 3 of 4 having qualified by early August because they have ridden their fixtures (week 3 can be kept free for rainoffs in weeks 1 and 2) And a set of promoters who all pull together for the sake of the sport and not the majority (NOTE not all) do what is only in their teams best interest (I am dreaming now!!!!) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singy13 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 23 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: (and of course if we believe all that we read this may not be the list of teams starting next year) Therein is the most important issue to sort first for 2019................who/where will be enjoying Speedway 2019.....18 Prem and Champ clubs as of now...BUT will they all re-appear for another season...I think it's highly unlikely....I still hope some new clubs could be formed...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, singy13 said: Therein is the most important issue to sort first for 2019................who/where will be enjoying Speedway 2019.....18 Prem and Champ clubs as of now...BUT will they all re-appear for another season...I think it's highly unlikely....I still hope some new clubs could be formed...? Think you are correct and one or two clubs will go by the wayside, however I do believe one or more clubs may come up from the National League and there will still be 18/20 clubs between the Championship and Premiership. Not from any previous knowledge just a gut feeling. Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singy13 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 3 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Think you are correct and one or two clubs will go by the wayside, however I do believe one or more clubs may come up from the National League and there will still be 18/20 clubs between the Championship and Premiership. Not from any previous knowledge just a gut feeling. Regards THJ Yep.....could, maybeeeeeeeeee, see such as Mildenhall, Eastbourne or Birmingham step up.....?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customhouseregular Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 I heard a whisper there will be 2 Irish riders in the Championship in 2019. Could be Nick Knack and Paddy Wack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenga Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, customhouseregular said: I heard a whisper there will be 2 Irish riders in the Championship in 2019. Could be Nick Knack and Paddy Wack. come on , leave the dog out of it .but HONESTLY , it would be good for them to have some competition at the gate for sarj . . sarj counts to two and goes ... the other cant count at all .. i got my info from a mini mars bar ! Edited October 20, 2018 by jenga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazc Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 14 minutes ago, jenga said: come on , leave the dog out of it .but HONESTLY , it would be good for them to have some competition at the gate for sarj . . sarj counts to two and goes ... the other cant count at all .. i got my info from a mini mars bar ! Your obsession with Sarjeant is pretty boring now , if you want to fantasize about him thats your prerogative but do it in front of the mirror in private and spare us the obsession. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenga Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 aye , yer prob right , but if your lot had not sighed him i would not be going on about it . he sold your lot a dummy and he truly was . no more from me then, we have all learned from the past two seasons eh . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 On 10/20/2018 at 5:01 PM, jenga said: aye , yer prob right , but if your lot had not sighed him i would not be going on about it . he sold your lot a dummy and he truly was . no more from me then, we have all learned from the past two seasons eh . Please do keep to your word and let us have "no more from you" unless of course it's sensible comment about real things happening at speedway matches or about how speedway is organised. Show us that you have learnt from the past two seasons and your ups and downs at speedway during them. As you claim to enjoy speedway so much, why not relax and enjoy it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 OK I dunno if this is a dumb idea or been considered before (I'm newly back into speedway after living abroad) I'll take the championship as an example. Currently the team limit is 42.5 I would suggest that any team from 2018 is allowed to keep their same team regardless of how their riders averages have improved. If they replace a rider: if the current team average is above 42.5, then the new rider must be lower than the leaving rider. (so team average could possibly still be above 42.5) if the current teams average is below 42.5 then they can replace however they like, as long as the new average is at/below 42.5 The idea behind this is that it would be better if we don't have to break up successful teams and should be able to get some consistency in teams instead of the merry-go-round of riderrs to teams and teams have motivation to improve and keep riders without having to then ditch a rider if they improve too much due to team average. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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