Mark Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 41 minutes ago, MARK246 said: That's a fair point so 15th would be Holder bring back Drabik 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 2 hours ago, MARK246 said: If you need a reason it's because they are the top 15 in the toughest league Which Hancock doesn't compete in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 2 hours ago, MARK246 said: These are the top 15 riders in the world at the moment. Zmarzlik, Madsen, Pedersen(N), Laguta, Woffinden, Sayfutdinov, Kasprzak, Janowski, Dudek(P), Lindgren(F), Vaculik, Doyle, Pawlicki(Piotr), Drabik(M), Kolodziej. If you need a reason it's because they are the top 15 in the toughest league I disagree. Just taking the 15 highest from Poland doesn't means that they automatically are the 15 best IMO. It's still a subjective opinion. I see it more as groups of riders because there difference is very small between many of the riders. Riders that could challenge for a world title, riders that are good enough to be able to finish around top 8 in SGP and those who would be likely to finish at the bottom and far far away from top 8. The middle groups is IMO very large and I there differences between the riders in that group is very small. Like the difference between JK and MJJ averages in poland which is 0,095. A hundredth of a point/heat. Could just be that MJJ was nice and let a team mate win in a 5-1 situation once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 27 minutes ago, Ghostwalker said: I disagree. Just taking the 15 highest from Poland doesn't means that they automatically are the 15 best IMO. It's still a subjective opinion. I see it more as groups of riders because there difference is very small between many of the riders. Riders that could challenge for a world title, riders that are good enough to be able to finish around top 8 in SGP and those who would be likely to finish at the bottom and far far away from top 8. The middle groups is IMO very large and I there differences between the riders in that group is very small. Like the difference between JK and MJJ averages in poland which is 0,095. A hundredth of a point/heat. Could just be that MJJ was nice and let a team mate win in a 5-1 situation once. It is an opinion, but speedway is a statistical sport and the way to judge the best is using known numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 10 minutes ago, MARK246 said: It is an opinion, but speedway is a statistical sport and the way to judge the best is using known numbers. But why ignore performances in GPs,Son,SEC and elitseren? There are probably 8-10 riders definitely deserving a spot as they have potential to battle for top 3, then another 10-15 riders who would be competitive but at best likely to be finishing top 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 10 minutes ago, waiheke1 said: But why ignore performances in GPs,Son,SEC and elitseren? The Elitseren I could agree, they could be taken into account, but the GP's, Son and SEC are too selective to show true form Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, MARK246 said: The Elitseren I could agree, they could be taken into account, but the GP's, Son and SEC are too selective to show true form In what way are those events "too selective". The GPs have 10 meetings where top riders are competing agsinst each other on a variety of tracks, and are arguably the true barometer of a rider's ability atvthe very top level. Speedway is an individual sport as much as a team one, so excluding certain events makes very little sense imo. When you look back on 2018 would you really argue Woffy was not as good as Nicki or Madsen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 6 hours ago, waiheke1 said: In what way are those events "too selective". The GPs have 10 meetings where top riders are competing agsinst each other on a variety of tracks, and are arguably the true barometer of a rider's ability atvthe very top level. Speedway is an individual sport as much as a team one, so excluding certain events makes very little sense imo. When you look back on 2018 would you really argue Woffy was not as good as Nicki or Madsen? The GPs do not contain the top riders though, that is the problem, the GPs only has the riders who BSI think will make them the most money. Speedway is always individual, team racing is only 7 riders totals added together. Woffinden beat the riders that were in the series, if the best 15 riders were in the series the outcome may have been different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, MARK246 said: The GPs do not contain the top riders though, that is the problem, the GPs only has the riders who BSI think will make them the most money. Woffinden beat the riders that were in the series, if the best 15 riders were in the series the outcome may have been different. Other than Madsen, which rider in 2018 who was not in the GPs, do you believe would have made the top 8 in GPs had they been included? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) I got splinters in my fingers scratching my head thinking about it. er, none but could name a few that could put the cat among the pigeons every so often...… including Lambert Edited October 16, 2018 by OveFundinFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillipsr Posted October 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, MARK246 said: The GPs do not contain the top riders though, that is the problem, the GPs only has the riders who BSI think will make them the most money. Speedway is always individual, team racing is only 7 riders totals added together. Woffinden beat the riders that were in the series, if the best 15 riders were in the series the outcome may have been different. who that isnt in there is better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) On 10/16/2018 at 5:25 AM, MARK246 said: Woffinden beat the riders that were in the series, if the best 15 riders were in the series the outcome may have been different. Didn't Woffy win his 2nd championship when Emil elected not to compete? I think it was the year that Emil won the SEC, I remember thinking at the time can Woffy really claim to be World Champion when a rider of Emil's quality and the form he was in was not in the competition... Then I thought yes he can Edited October 22, 2018 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 hours ago, MARK246 said: The GPs do not contain the top riders though, that is the problem, the GPs only has the riders who BSI think will make them the most money. Speedway is always individual, team racing is only 7 riders totals added together. Woffinden beat the riders that were in the series, if the best 15 riders were in the series the outcome may have been different. WILD cards etc are selected by the FIM SGP group comprised of three members ... two of which are from the FIM. Of course they will confer with the BSI rep but can out vote him if necessary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonis Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 outvote their paymasters yea right ,, haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Col said: Other than Madsen, which rider in 2018 who was not in the GPs, do you believe would have made the top 8 in GPs had they been included? Other than Greg Hancock the top 8 are in the 15 riders i listed. It is possible that if Hancock rode in the top league in Poland he would of been in the list. So Madsen in and Hancock out, what the list does give is a greater strength in depth. Which imo would produce better, closer racing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 But you are not answering the question asked. Other than Madsen, which rider in 2018 who was not in the GPs, do you believe would have made the top 8 in GPs had they been included? Using Ekstraliga statistics is not unreasonable, but Hancock is not included and there is the fact that Drabik and other young Poles figures are elevated by there reserve status. Drabik is ranked 24th in Elitserien 2018 stats, Vaculik is 23rd. Which puts them behind other riders who did not compete in 2018 Ekstraliga - Lambert (15th), Jonsson (18th), Ljung (21st), Thomsen (22nd). Who is to say if those riders did compete in Ekstraliga they would not have achieved a higher average than Drabik, Vaculik. Kasprzak is who you listed also, is 37th in Elitserien rankings, albeit from a limited number of playoff only meetings. I assume Sayfutdinov & Kołodziej didn't compete in Elitserien during 2018 as I can't find them in the stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Col said: But you are not answering the question asked. Other than Madsen, which rider in 2018 who was not in the GPs, do you believe would have made the top 8 in GPs had they been included? Without personal bias, there are no riders who would make the top 8. Edited October 16, 2018 by MARK246 Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 6 hours ago, MARK246 said: The GPs do not contain the top riders though, that is the problem, the GPs only has the riders who BSI think will make them the most money. Speedway is always individual, team racing is only 7 riders totals added together. Woffinden beat the riders that were in the series, if the best 15 riders were in the series the outcome may have been different. Oh dear. Hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Had 5 mins to spare, SoN averages. Woffinden 18 49 10.89 Hancock 6 16 10.67 Laguta 18 47 10.44 Doyle 18 43 9.56 Zagar 6 14 9.33 Milik 6 13 8.67 Jepsen Jensen 18 37 8.22 Lindgren 18 37 8.22 Huckenbeck 6 11 7.33 Janowski 12 22 7.33 Bellego 6 10 6.67 Smolinski 6 9 6 Drabik 2 3 6 Sayfutdinov 17 23 5.41 Lokatev 6 8 5.33 Lebedevs 6 8 5.33 Karpov 6 7 4.67 Franc 6 7 4.67 Lahtia 6 7 4.67 Aarnio 6 7 4.67 Lindback 18 21 4.67 Lambert 17 19 4.47 Dudek 10 11 4.4 Puodhzuks 6 6 4 Bjerre 16 16 4 Cook 1 1 4 Covatti 6 6 4 Fricke 18 13 2.89 Ivacic 3 2 2.67 Berge 6 4 2.67 Skorja 3 1 1.33 Castagne 6 2 1.33 Manzares 6 1 0.67 Chugunov 1 0 0 Jacobsen 2 0 0 Edited October 16, 2018 by Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 Noting that riders like Zagar and Milik have inflated averages due to riding only in the semis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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