OveFundinFan Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Three individual World titles You mean Peter Collins has not won three INDIVIDUAL world titles, he has won a total of 10 world titles. How many world titles has Tai won? er 3 (good going, but far short of Collins) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said: You mean Peter Collins has not won three INDIVIDUAL world titles, he has won a total of 10 world titles. How many world titles has Tai won? er 3 (good going, but far short of Collins) Tai Woffinden has won three. Peter Collins has won one. That is the only thing they can be compared against. The ability of team mates, which are necessary for the other titles, render them redundant to the discussion. Plus the standard of opposition in some of those pairs and team victories was not exactly 'elite'. Edited October 7, 2018 by BWitcher 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 32 minutes ago, iris123 said: He was even picked out by Briggo before the season started as a big favorite to win.And I have a 1972 season review that picks Jerzy as a dark horseto win the 1973 title,so neither was such a surprise as people today seem to think Fact is though neither would really have been a favorite over a GP season.Egon might well be up there as a contender for a medal.A certainty to get in the top 8 I would say A lot of it, I think, goes back to the myth propogated at the time that if you didn't ride in the UK then you weren't any good. I also used to have a video about Ivan Mauger, calked Circuits of Gold, in which Ivan's wife talked about Ivan beating himself up trying to emulate stuff that Egon Muller was doing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Tai Woffinden has won three. Peter Collins has won one. That is the only thing they can be compared against. The ability of team mates, which are necessary for the other titles, render them redundant to the discussion. I agree, although looking back at the British World Champions since I started going in 1974, if any of them were made of the same stuff as Woffinden then it would be Peter Collins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Grachan said: I agree, although looking back at the British World Champions since I started going in 1974, if any of them were made of the same stuff as Woffinden then it would be Peter Collins. Yep, not taking anything away from Peter Collins at all. Brilliant rider. Just this nonsensical argument put forward about his other titles. Look at the 77 pairs.. on his home track at Hyde Road.. the opposition was mediocre at best. Similarly in 1980.. nothing major in terms of opposition, the Poles on their own track plus the Danes with a yet to fully mature Nielsen the best.. the rest complete also rans. Similar story in many of the World Team Cup Finals. The standard of the teams competing in a World Cup Final now is way above those competing in the World Team Cup Finals of the 70's. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfsbane Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 Best ever? I dislike the guy intensely but of course he is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Shovlar Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) Bbc have opened a Have Your Say. Leave a comment to show there are speedway fans out there. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/45774397 Edited October 7, 2018 by Steve Shovlar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 37 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Yep, not taking anything away from Peter Collins at all. Brilliant rider. Just this nonsensical argument put forward about his other titles. Look at the 77 pairs.. on his home track at Hyde Road.. the opposition was mediocre at best. Similarly in 1980.. nothing major in terms of opposition, the Poles on their own track plus the Danes with a yet to fully mature Nielsen the best.. the rest complete also rans. Similar story in many of the World Team Cup Finals. The standard of the teams competing in a World Cup Final now is way above those competing in the World Team Cup Finals of the 70's. Considering collins was past his best, his performance in the 1984 word pairs final at Lonigo was something special. The heat that day was unbearable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) Worth a watch... Not only can he pass on the first two turns... He does a pretty decent job of it elsewhere too.. Edited October 7, 2018 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 After watching that video just remember he would only have been an average rider in the days when every race was fantastic and the riders so much more skilled on engines that lasted 10 seasons before servicing and were all exactly equal because nobody tuned them, also winning one meeting was so much harder than scoring the most points over a series . He's lucky to be around when Speedway is such an easy sport to win. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, Vince said: After watching that video just remember he would only have been an average rider in the days when every race was fantastic and the riders so much more skilled on engines that lasted 10 seasons before servicing and were all exactly equal because nobody tuned them, also winning one meeting was so much harder than scoring the most points over a series . He's lucky to be around when Speedway is such an easy sport to win. or Wembley crowd doubled Cardiff, mainstream TV covered our sport (world of sport), national newspaper gave it credibility (daily mirror) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 1 minute ago, ColinMills said: or Wembley crowd doubled Cardiff, mainstream TV covered our sport (world of sport), national newspaper gave it credibility (daily mirror) None of which has any relevance whatsoever to the discussion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 Just now, BWitcher said: None of which has any relevance whatsoever to the discussion. Just now, BWitcher said: None of which has any relevance whatsoever to the discussion. totally agree, but in "my opinion" speedway as a package was credible, rules that wasn't swayed the way they are today..i cant see many sports around that has lost the fan base in such huge numbers the way speedway has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 We'll have someone saying he only has a 9 pt average so can't even be as good as Malcolm Simmons,who had a 10.9 average and won the pairs a few times,come along soon!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hulvik Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 It's the old pub debate "Who's the greatest...." It will always be hard to compare riders of different generations. Bikes, tracks and formats have all changed over the years and while everybody as their own views, each of them valid how is it possible to compare Woffy to the likes of Colins and Mauger when the circumstances they raced are so very different. And how do you class greatness. Number of titles, points scored, length career. The only fair way is to look at those riders of the same generation. Woffy is one of a small group of the current British riders who as ridden in the GP series and as certainly done the best out of those so it would be fair to say he is the best British rider of this generation 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 4 hours ago, OveFundinFan said: You mean Peter Collins has not won three INDIVIDUAL world titles, he has won a total of 10 world titles. How many world titles has Tai won? er 3 (good going, but far short of Collins) How many of Collins 10 titles were individual? How many of Collins 10 titles were as a team and his partners score 0 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 31 minutes ago, ColinMills said: totally agree, but in "my opinion" speedway as a package was credible, rules that wasn't swayed the way they are today..i cant see many sports around that has lost the fan base in such huge numbers the way speedway has. Yes it was so credible that riders were regularly 'buying pts' of others in World Championships.. others were letting countrymen beat them in order for them both to qualify.. Indeed it was so credible the national press ran an expose on it and the sport hit a massive down turn ever since with mainstream media turning their backs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, iris123 said: We'll have someone saying he only has a 9 pt average so can't even be as good as Malcolm Simmons,who had a 10.9 average and won the pairs a few times,come along soon!!! Why are you comparing Malcom Simmons to TW. How disrespectful. 'won a few medals" Its three more gold medals Than TW has won in a team event!! Of course back then The eastern block riders turned up on horse and carts and rode mopeds and the Swedes would share a bike between them and the Danes all had to ride Ole's hand me downs I keep hearing that todays riders have so much more skill? It sure takes a lot of skill to hold the bike flat out on a slick track for 4 laps!. With a nice little air fence added for extra protection! Just look what happen at a recent GP when there is a bit of dirt on the track. They had there little riders meetings and demanded to have all the dirt scraped off. If they are so skilful, surely they can ride in any conditions? There is a thing called a throttle and it can go both ways! At the end of the why can't we just all agree TW is the best rider in the GP series at this moment in time. As were Ivan, Ole, Rickardsson and Crump were when they became World Champions 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 1 minute ago, BWitcher said: Yes it was so credible that riders were regularly 'buying pts' of others in World Championships.. others were letting countrymen beat them in order for them both to qualify.. Indeed it was so credible the national press ran an expose on it and the sport hit a massive down turn ever since with mainstream media turning their backs. Team Monster last year in the last round? or does that not count Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, hulvik said: It's the old pub debate "Who's the greatest...." It will always be hard to compare riders of different generations. Bikes, tracks and formats have all changed over the years and while everybody as their own views, each of them valid how is it possible to compare Woffy to the likes of Colins and Mauger when the circumstances they raced are so very different. And how do you class greatness. Number of titles, points scored, length career. The only fair way is to look at those riders of the same generation. Woffy is one of a small group of the current British riders who as ridden in the GP series and as certainly done the best out of those so it would be fair to say he is the best British rider of this generation The best and fair way to say which rider's were better than others is by individual titles. Even over generations. Mager and Rickardsson are the best of the best and can't possibly be disputed. They're very much at the top for everyone because of the number of world titles. So, to be the best British rider it also has to be judged on the world stage individually. Tai Woffinden tops the chart of the greatest ever British rider. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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