Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[Gavan]

3 hours ago, rjsj9803 said:

Tai might be the best I see maybe 10 to 15 times a week on television a year, but personally that puts him behind Collins, Loram, Lee etc who many of us watched weekly in the flesh.

 

On entertainment value yes he is behind those

On success and greatness he is quite a way ahead of all 3

[fatface]

6 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

Sigalos is the most interesting of the "What ifs" of the top riders ruled out during the 1980s, and perhaps the one who could have given Erik and Hans their hardest run for their money (although IMO they would have still been ahead - the signs are already there in '83).

Although not in 1984, because even had his ankle been OK after his American Final fall, Siggy was out of contention with just 4 points from 3 rides.

It is an interesting "What If"?

Playing Devil's Advocate, you could have made a similar argument against Gundersen or Nielsen had their careers ended as abruptly in 84. Nielsen had yet to really contend in a World Final in four attempts, Gundersen had missed out on qualifying in 82. Both had yet to reach the rostrum.

Whilst Sanders and Carter were also lost far too soon and they could have been contenders, I do think their best chances had passed them by. I can't say that for a 24 year old Sigalos. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by falcace

[chunky]

34 minutes ago, falcace said:

Playing Devil's Advocate, you could have made a similar argument against Gundersen or Nielsen had their careers ended as abruptly in 84. Nielsen had yet to really contend in a World Final in four attempts, Gundersen had missed out on qualifying in 82. Both had yet to reach the rostrum.

Whilst Sanders and Carter were also lost far too soon and they could have been contenders, I do think their best chances had passed them by. I can't say that for a 24 year old Sigalos. 

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday!  While speculation can be fun, people get so focused on the "what ifs?, which mean absolutely nothing.  History and fact is based on what DID happen, not what COULD have happened.  Sure :

1)What if Peter Craven, Kenny Carter, Billy Sanders, Tommy Jansson, and Erik Gundersen hadn't had their careers ended so abruptly?
2) What if Peter Collins, Sverre Harrfeldt, Ronnie Moore, and Torbjorn Harrysson hadn't suffered their serious injuries?
3) What if Dave Jessup (throw in Gundersen and Carter in 1981 too) had been able to keep his bikes going for five World Final races?

The answer to all of those is, "WE DON'T KNOW!  Itt is all conjecture.

Let's try to answer some of those, though...

Craven and Moore carry on through the 1960's - maybe Mauger wouldn't have been World Champion from 1968 to 1970.

Collins didn't break his leg in 1977, and Mauger would lose another title.

Let's look at some other "what ifs?", and far from me being flippant, change just one small historical fact, and it can throw the future into total chaos.

1) What if Edward Jancarz had come to England a few years earlier?
2) What if Bruce Penhall hadn't retired?
3) What if Freddie Williams hadn't ridden for Wembley?
4) What if Ronnie Moore hadn't quit speedway for a while in order to race on four wheels?
5) What if Ivan Mauger had broken his arm when he fell in the run-off against Szczakiel?
6) What if David Biles and David Tyler hadn't decided to walk out on speedway?  Could they have been World Champions?

Conjecture, and it is what it is...

Steve

[iris123]

Or what if every Final was held at Norden for 8 or 10 years ? 

I agree, it is difficult to say Craven would have won even 1 more title. Were people thinking Jack Young must win another title at least at the time ?

[BluPanther]

8 minutes ago, iris123 said:

Or what if every Final was held at Norden for 8 or 10 years ? 

I agree, it is difficult to say Craven would have won even 1 more title. Were people thinking Jack Young must win another title at least at the time ?

At least three world finals in the 80's and 90's were won by riders using 'big' engines, fortunately that sort of thing can't happen now. 

[iris123]

3 minutes ago, Milankovitch said:

At least three world finals in the 80's and 90's were won by riders using 'big' engines, fortunately that sort of thing can't happen now. 

One insider told me Egon had a manipulated bike, but that it was something to do with the exhaust rather than engine. But can anything be proved ? Mostly rumours and they go right back to the 1930s

[BluPanther]

19 minutes ago, iris123 said:

One insider told me Egon had a manipulated bike, but that it was something to do with the exhaust rather than engine. But can anything be proved ? Mostly rumours and they go right back to the 1930s

I heard it from someone who was in that World Final, seems it was common knowledge in the pits. Another 'world champion' reeled off four straight wins, changed to his second bike for his last ride, ran a last on that, and guess which engine got tested afterwards. Yep, the one that ran the last...

[fatface]

29 minutes ago, iris123 said:

One insider told me Egon had a manipulated bike, but that it was something to do with the exhaust rather than engine. But can anything be proved ? Mostly rumours and they go right back to the 1930s

I did go to that final and he absolutely romped it. I’ve no doubt he would have passed Nielsen should he needed in his final race too. Even now when you see it on YouTube, just watch the noticeable extra speed he has on the rest of the field. He’s leaving everyone for dead on the straights.

[chunky]

1 hour ago, falcace said:

I did go to that final and he absolutely romped it. I’ve no doubt he would have passed Nielsen should he needed in his final race too. Even now when you see it on YouTube, just watch the noticeable extra speed he has on the rest of the field. He’s leaving everyone for dead on the straights.

I was there too, and I really can't argue with your assessment. In 50-plus years of watching speedway, I've seen some dominant performances, but Muller beats the lot...

Steve

[lucifer sam]

3 hours ago, falcace said:

Playing Devil's Advocate, you could have made a similar argument against Gundersen or Nielsen had their careers ended as abruptly in 84. Nielsen had yet to really contend in a World Final in four attempts, Gundersen had missed out on qualifying in 82. Both had yet to reach the rostrum.

Whilst Sanders and Carter were also lost far too soon and they could have been contenders, I do think their best chances had passed them by. I can't say that for a 24 year old Sigalos. 

Good point.

Yes, both Sanders and Carter had peaked.  In the case of Carter, he peaked in 1982 at the age of 21. He could look quite ordinary by 1985. I remember him score just a point in an England v Denmark test match at Oxford.   

[BWitcher]

5 hours ago, Milankovitch said:

I heard it from someone who was in that World Final, seems it was common knowledge in the pits. Another 'world champion' reeled off four straight wins, changed to his second bike for his last ride, ran a last on that, and guess which engine got tested afterwards. Yep, the one that ran the last...

Ah Bless.

You realise he flew out the gate in that race before losing concentration as his dream was already secured. It was actually his third bike on the night, also one of the engines that carried him to an 11+ average that season.

Seems someone is harboring a grudge

[steve roberts]

13 hours ago, chunky said:

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday!  While speculation can be fun, people get so focused on the "what ifs?, which mean absolutely nothing.  History and fact is based on what DID happen, not what COULD have happened.  Sure :

1)What if Peter Craven, Kenny Carter, Billy Sanders, Tommy Jansson, and Erik Gundersen hadn't had their careers ended so abruptly?
2) What if Peter Collins, Sverre Harrfeldt, Ronnie Moore, and Torbjorn Harrysson hadn't suffered their serious injuries?
3) What if Dave Jessup (throw in Gundersen and Carter in 1981 too) had been able to keep his bikes going for five World Final races?

The answer to all of those is, "WE DON'T KNOW!  Itt is all conjecture.

Let's try to answer some of those, though...

Craven and Moore carry on through the 1960's - maybe Mauger wouldn't have been World Champion from 1968 to 1970.

Collins didn't break his leg in 1977, and Mauger would lose another title.

Let's look at some other "what ifs?", and far from me being flippant, change just one small historical fact, and it can throw the future into total chaos.

1) What if Edward Jancarz had come to England a few years earlier?
2) What if Bruce Penhall hadn't retired?
3) What if Freddie Williams hadn't ridden for Wembley?
4) What if Ronnie Moore hadn't quit speedway for a while in order to race on four wheels?
5) What if Ivan Mauger had broken his arm when he fell in the run-off against Szczakiel?
6) What if David Biles and David Tyler hadn't decided to walk out on speedway?  Could they have been World Champions?

Conjecture, and it is what it is...

Steve

Yes crippling injuries suffered by riders down the years have always begged the question how good a particular rider could have been. Would Per Jonsson have won more titles? Would Arne Pander have been a major force if injuries hadn't held him back? are two that instantly come to mind and there are many other examples down the years.

Edited March 14, 2019 by steve roberts

[waytogo28]

Playing the "what if" game re: injuries and engine failures at crucial; times - Ove Fundin would have had at least seven world individual titles and be easily "the most successful ever".

[BWitcher]

2 hours ago, waytogo28 said:

Playing the "what if" game re: injuries and engine failures at crucial; times - Ove Fundin would have had at least seven world individual titles and be easily "the most successful ever".

It's a false argument though really.

Once one incident/moment is changed, everything thereafter changes so there is no guarantee that he would have won the subsequent titles, likewise he may have won more.

It's the same in football when a team wins 2-0 and people say it should have been more, for example if a penalty was given early on.. if that penalty was given, the rest of the game as you saw it doesn't happen. Different events unfold.

Not having a pop at you, we all do it!

Edited March 14, 2019 by BWitcher

[chunky]

37 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

It's a false argument though really.

Once one incident/moment is changed, everything thereafter changes so there is no guarantee that he would have won the subsequent titles, likewise he may have won more.

My exact point. It's incredible to think how ONE small change would have affected so much later.

What if Peter Craven had broken the tapes in what turned out to be his final race? That affects the World Championship for years to come, not just the results, but even qualification, because we now have an extra person in the mix.

Digressing slightly for a moment, here's the effect it has...

I am sitting here writing this in Loveland, Ohio, because my dad's car wouldn't start - on the morning of March 15, 1971! Sounds crazy, doesn't it?

Had the car started, he wouldn't have had to ride his motorbike to work, and he wouldn't have been hit by a car on the way home, smashing his leg. Had that not happened, he would have carried on playing cricket, would never have taken darts seriously and turned professional, and I would never have taken up darts as a career. Had I not played darts, I wouldn't have travelled to the US, and then moved here!

Thing is, now think of what MIGHT have happened. I would have stayed in the UK. I could have been driving to a speedway meeting, and got in a car crash with, say, Gary Havelock in 1992. He might have been injured badly enough to stop him qualifying for the 1992 World Final.

I know it sounds crazy, but one small change in my own personal history can have a monumental effect, not just on my life, but on the lives of others...

Steve

[Sidney the robin]

14 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

Good point.

Yes, both Sanders and Carter had peaked.  In the case of Carter, he peaked in 1982 at the age of 21. He could look quite ordinary by 1985. I remember him score just a point in an England v Denmark test match at Oxford.   

Sanders had not peaked in my opinion he was just approaching it the two years before his demise he really had upped his game.

[chunky]

6 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Sanders had not peaked in my opinion he was just approaching it the two years before his demise he really had upped his game.

Conjecture...

[Sidney the robin]

4 minutes ago, chunky said:

Conjecture...

I think in his last year up until his death he was averaging around 11.50 ish and in the World Pairs at Gothenburg excluding the fall he was outstanding ironic that  Guglielmi was his partner.

[fatface]

56 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I think in his last year up until his death he was averaging around 11.50 ish and in the World Pairs at Gothenburg excluding the fall he was outstanding ironic that  Guglielmi was his partner.

Yes, but it was mid April, that’s a world away from having that average in Sept. Morton, Carter etc were also usually up in the mid 11s at that stage of the season. 

His best chance was in 84 on a track he rode brilliantly with a wide open field and he was inexplicably poor. At aged 29-34, was he really set to challenge the Danes from 85-89? I don’t see it.

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

Sanders had not peaked in my opinion he was just approaching it the two years before his demise he really had upped his game.

I would agree Sid. Billy was riding as good as ever during 1983/84 and one can only wonder how his later career would have panned out. I still recall hearing the news and felt numb on hearing it. A great loss to the sport.

Edited March 14, 2019 by steve roberts